Theory and practice.

[berserkbishop]

Just finished reading this juggernaut of a thread. I guess I have mixed feeling toward it all. I only wear my kilt on occasion, and I usually try to dress following the Highland tradition. I often fall short though. I dont have the funding to buy a beautiful Ferguson Britt sporran and I refuse to buy a cheap substitute (learned the hard way that you really do get what you pay for with highland attire). Because of the afore mentioned lack of funding I started doing leather work, but I still have no formal sporran. I never got that good before I joined the service.

I said that to say this. I went to MY college graduation in my Cunningham tank, black leather rob roy sporran (much like a Thorfinn,) and *gasp* a PC with a Cunningham necktie. At the time I didnt realise that I might offend the traditionalists, and I thought it all looked rather sharp.

Now that I realise that it is not readily accepted as highland dress, I wont do it again. Bowtie with the PC only for me from now on. Do I regret doing it, heck no. I was one of the best dressed for the occasion.

My point is this, I learn a lot about traditional highland dress from many of the folks from Scotland on this board, but actually achieving the look spot on can be difficult, especially on a budget. I will strive to to better next time (as funds permit) I promise.

I respect the advice I am given, but I do the best with what I have and do not feel like I made a mockery of Scotland's national dress because I wore a tartan necktie, less than formal sporran, and a PC. I did the best that I could though some would argue that I just shouldnt try until I have a proper kit put together.

I WILL NOT stop wearing the kilt because I feel that I am forced to adhere to a certain dress code and anything less makes a mockery of Scotland.

Hopefully Jock Scot will excuse my fashion faux pas as me being a young rebel

Regards
Bishop

[blackbeard]

DISCLAMER! I am not trying to be political!

My opinion on practice is that the practitioner sometimes has no idea what the practice really is.
Case in point: Here in the US we have what are called red blooded, patriotic, Americans. Third, forth and fifth generation born and raised the USA. The closest thing I can think of to the kilt in the US are the Stars and Stripes. Very patriotic, very nationalistic, and very abused by the same practitioners who are enveloping themselves in it. It has become the custom in the US to fly a flag on ones car radio antenna or on a pole out the window. After months of treating the flag to near hurricane winds, the flag becomes so tattered it is hardly recognizable. But I fear I might have my head blown off if I were to point out to the very patriotic driver that he is being very disrespectful of the flag. “Its his right to fly the flag any way he wants to”. In this case the practitioner has no clue as to what the practice of flying the Stars and Stripes is.

To bring this thought back around to the current thread....
Since all of us on this planet are basically of the same blood. Given the above example. In my humble opinion, there must be plenty of Scots who couldn't tell a district tartan from a clan tartan and who only care about kilts on national holidays, major events or when a foreigner is, in their view wearing one the wrong way. They probably are more concerned with putting food on the table than anything else.
By reading posts on this forum, from the intelligent teachings of Jock Scott, Matt Newsome, and my own research I have learned quite a bit about the history tartans and the kilt. Weather it's modern, ancient, knife pleated or box pleated; it's the national dress of my ancestors homeland and I treat it with the same dignity I treat the Stars and Stripes. However, I also reserve the right to wear a pink camo kilt to a backyard BBQ (not that I would). I would not however wear one in Scotland and I would never call it Highland attire .

Just as I would hope that the under educated US flag waver would learn a little more about the Stars and Stripes, I hope that the under educated Scot would learn a little more about the tartan, the kilt and their history.

I will now get off my soap box and return you to your regular programing.

(BTW in San Francisco we chuckle at the tourists wearing shorts and t shirts in August.But never to their face.)

[SteveB]

Theory, Practice, Perception, Reality.

Theory:

We could all be traditionalists and wear the kilt with appropriate accouterments for the level of formality, and only for those events. Much as was worn in Scotland when I lived there many years ago.

We would all learn to type our posts in English or the Galdhig of Scotland, and leave our Americanisms behind.

Practice:

Most of us on this board enjoy wearing the kilt. Most of us do not have all of the items in our wardrobes to properly do Highland Attire. Most of us that wear tartan kilts try to honour the traditions of Scotland to the best of our abilities and knowledge. Those that wear kilts of the non-traditional type, are wearing it as a garment and not the symbol of the proud people of Scotland.

Perception:

The general public on the left side of the pond see a kilt and either think of it as a guy in a skirt (very few), or if they know of the garment as a kilt, they think of Scotland and the wearer must be a Scot (most Canadians, and more than half of the U.S.).

On the right side of the pond, wearing the kilt in other than the traditional format on a gentleman of age is seen as tourist posing, and not all that respectful of the people of Scotland or the clan (district, county, etc.) tartan being worn. On a young gent, it is seen as either a rebellious behaviour (tartan), or as a fashion that should die any day now (non-tartan).

Reality:

In the U.S. and in Canada, the kilt (Tartan) still represents the National Attire of Scotland. Those of us wearing it need to do so with due respect. I have traced my genealogy to Clan MacNeil, and I feel strongly as to how the clan tartan should be displayed (knowledge and history). A person not displaying the tartan properly is a little bit less to be respected in my mind, or any other tartan for that matter.
The non tartan kilt in its many forms is generally perceived as an American kilt like garment, so the T-shirt, trainers, and ball cap are not seen as reflecting on the good people of Scotland.

I can not state the reality for the right side of the pond, as I have not lived there for many years and my knowledge is way out of date.

Summary:

For doing my American thing in a kilt, I wear the UK, AK, Amerikilt, FK solid colour, with golf shirt, scrunched hose and trainers. It is seen here as an American take off of the kilt. I would NEVER dream of wearing one of these in Scotland, or while playing my bagpipe anywhere. I would not wish any harm to my tartan kilts while cleaning gutters, or tending the garden.

I own a Tank in my clan tartan, I have posted to the traditional forum for criticism and advise. All of it has been very helpful. I am not fully kitted up properly yet. As the budget allows the rest will be put together. I certainly plan to be respectfully kitted when I visit Scotland and would wish to seen with our Scot members without looking the fool. I am deeply grateful for our traditional members for their advise.

Nothing amuses me more than seeing what some gents look like when they attempt to kit at their first Highland Games or Scottish festival. Far to many off the peg kit in the wrong sizes.
I will have plenty of opportunity as I will be a visible representative of my clan (association) the whole three days, while staffing the tent and attending the AGM. The only items that I am missing right now are a proper daytime waistcoat and jacket. I hope to have them bespoke with a Scot firm after the Games.

This is a very relevant thread. I hope many see the chance to do the traditional kilted thing, even if it is only for the wedding, funeral, or other special event.

Slainte

[Nighthawk]

DISCLAMER! I am not trying to be political!

My opinion on practice is that the practitioner sometimes has no idea what the practice really is.
Case in point: Here in the US we have what are called red blooded, patriotic, Americans. Third, forth and fifth generation born and raised the USA. The closest thing I can think of to the kilt in the US are the Stars and Stripes. Very patriotic, very nationalistic, and very abused by the same practitioners who are enveloping themselves in it. It has become the custom in the US to fly a flag on ones car radio antenna or on a pole out the window. After months of treating the flag to near hurricane winds, the flag becomes so tattered it is hardly recognizable. But I fear I might have my head blown off if I were to point out to the very patriotic driver that he is being very disrespectful of the flag. “Its his right to fly the flag any way he wants to”. In this case the practitioner has no clue as to what the practice of flying the Stars and Stripes is.

To bring this thought back around to the current thread....
Since all of us on this planet are basically of the same blood. Given the above example. In my humble opinion, there must be plenty of Scots who couldn't tell a district tartan from a clan tartan and who only care about kilts on national holidays, major events or when a foreigner is, in their view wearing one the wrong way. They probably are more concerned with putting food on the table than anything else.
By reading posts on this forum, from the intelligent teachings of Jock Scott, Matt Newsome, and my own research I have learned quite a bit about the history tartans and the kilt. Weather it's modern, ancient, knife pleated or box pleated; it's the national dress of my ancestors homeland and I treat it with the same dignity I treat the Stars and Stripes. However, I also reserve the right to wear a pink camo kilt to a backyard BBQ (not that I would). I would not however wear one in Scotland and I would never call it Highland attire .

Just as I would hope that the under educated US flag waver would learn a little more about the Stars and Stripes, I hope that the under educated Scot would learn a little more about the tartan, the kilt and their history.

I will now get off my soap box and return you to your regular programing.

(BTW in San Francisco we chuckle at the tourists wearing shorts and t shirts in August.But never to their face.)

I have emboldened and highlighted the statement here that I found to be the most relevant. I like that part. That's exactly why I say that wearing a contemporary kilt does nothing to detract from the traditional Highland attire.

[wildrover]

On the right side of the pond, wearing the kilt in other than the traditional format on a gentleman of age is seen as tourist posing, and not all that respectful of the people of Scotland or the clan (district, county, etc.) tartan being worn. On a young gent, it is seen as either a rebellious behaviour (tartan), or as a fashion that should die any day now (non-tartan).

Oy, did you just say the traditional format is only worn by old guys?

I'm curious, what do the Scots think of the American unbifurcated garments?

-Sean

[O'Callaghan]

I am of both Scottish and Irish family and have kilts in Wallace and Irish National. The Irish national can get you in trouble with some Rangers fans (many by ignorance or near sighted appear not to tell the difference)

Personally if me I would get a new 8 yard, Irish county. This gets well received if recognised, as being a bit of Gael mutual respect. (be sure to have an answer for why you wear it like my family were Irish farmers from Munster which were forced out during the Potato famine or whatever.) If you have a Scottish link in any way go with a clan tartan. If in doubt go with No. 5

Interesting point about Rangers fans. If the're anything like English soccer fans then they might attack someone they thought was a Celtic fan. Mind you, ironically, most Irish actually are Celtic fans to some extent.

I know exactly who my Irish ancestors were, where they came from, down to the particular part of County Cork (which, BTW, IS in Munster, of which Callaghan of Cashel was once King), and what they did for a living (sailors, not farmers, at least as far back as I can go, and if I do have royal blood I share it with hundreds of thousands of his other descendants), but I have not one iota of Scottish blood. I do have a Co. Cork kilt, but it's PV with velcro, and is cerainly not 8yds. It falls around the lower knee somewhere.

Ironically, though, I do have Scottish relatives, related by marriage. That's not including my wife, who is of Scots descent. I also have cousins there, related by marriage to some branch of my father's family, and the next time I go there, whenever that is, it would be them I was going to see. I would like to visit them, because it is a long time since I have seen them.

One of them who is the same age as me wears the kilt (I assume not just for special occasions, because I have a pic of him wearing a kilt while sitting on the sofa in the front room), but I am not sure what sett he wears. They are orginally from the Glasgow area, so no highlanders(!), the tartan in their family name was only registered in the 1980s, and I suspect the eponymous clan hasn't existed much longer than that, as when I was a child I am sure they were considered to be a sept of one of the big clans and not at that time a clan in their own right.

So, Bruno, do you think I should wear my wife's clan tartan, or my cousin's? As to the latter, exactly which tartan that is depends on which one he actually wears, I suppose. I would have to look at a photo of him and ID it. Do you think he would be offended if I wore the same tartan? I'm family of course, and we always got along, but I'm not a member of his clan or in any way Scottish.

[Jock Scot]

Oy, did you just say the traditional format is only worn by old guys?

I'm curious, what do the Scots think of the American unbifurcated garments?

-Sean

Alright Jock this is a fair question, so put your brain into gear and answer it fairly. As far as I am aware I have not ever seen, at first hand and close too, an American(Canada too?) unbifurgated garment. So that leaves forming a fair opinion from pictures and distant views at a disadvantage, but I can try. I will not name names as I think that is unfair and I might label the wrong garment to the wrong person or manufacturer.

So having said that.What do I think? Well lets start with the traditional(real) kilt makers. There is no doubting that there are some first class kilt makers making first rate kilts out there that are equal to the very best that Scotland can produce. Next, let me go to the traditional(factory made) style kilts. Some look exellent, and appear to be very well made and just because they are not hand sown they are none the worse for that.Then we go onto the modern style traditional kilt where I start to get anxious . I do not like the way they hang from the hip as opposed from the natural waist, if you do try to wear any sort of jacket and waistcoat with it you get the dreaded gap, therefore they are not as versitile.They also look as though they are short of a yard or two of cloth. Then we come to the box pleat, many have a high reputation as far as build quality goes, other than that, all I can say is that I don't like them; particularly when they are sold under the banner of "real" kilts, I am very uneasy about that sorry. With all of the above I am assuming they are all made of tartan wool as I have no experiance with any other cloth.

Now we go onto the modern contempory garments. In all honesty I struggle to call them kilts and I wish another name could be thought up for them, but kilts, I suppose, is how they will remain. Well I try to have an open mind and I really do try to see merit in them and frankly I have seen nothing yet that I like, but I will keep looking! How they will be(are?) viewed by other Scots I can only guess,but I would not dare to wear one in certain parts of Scotland!

Have I been fair? Well I have tried to be. I hope that no one is too upset with me but the question was asked and I have answered it to the best of my ability. I hope other Scots members will chip in with their views too.

[Phil]

I'm curious, what do the Scots think of the American unbifurcated garments? -Sean

Speaking for Scots generally I would have to say that most are totally unaware that anyone in America wears a kilt apart from perhaps a few pipe bands and I am not even sure of that.
Speaking for myself as a Scot who is a member of this forum I would say that if you are referring to the casual, non-tartan type of unbifurcated garment then I would have to say that it seems a perfectly acceptable form of dress. It is not a kilt however, no matter how it is dressed up, but I can see the reason why its wearers would like to present it as such, given the attitudes of society in general to men wearing what some may perceive as women's clothing. And can I say that that is definitely not my view.
If you are referring to the members who have a proper "tank" (I believe that is the term) then I am always pleased to see the kilt worn well, particularly when care is taken with the overall appearance. I do think, on occasion, that a little too much emphasis is given to religiously matching accessories - you know black sporan with black shoes and belt, that sort of thing - but it is preferable to work within some form of guidance which helps to avert some of the more extreme mistakes. I have never seen some of the other variations such as box pleats but they look perfectly acceptable in tartan as kilts although I should imagine they don't have quite the "swing" that a true kilt does simply by the depth and weight of cloth involved.

[Jock Scot]

How true, Jock. Even my wife howled with derision when she saw that atrocious outfit "Shir Shaun" wore when the Queen opened the Scottish Parliament all those years ago. A Prince Charlie with a jabot and lacey cuffs - to a daytime function as well! Here he was at an investiture again inappropriately dressed -


But, as you say, people see someone famous like that and think that such a travesty of dress is quite all right and one that they should emulate. Fine. But next you find them lecturing you on correct forms of dress, and it must be right if "Shir Shaun" or whoever else wears it.
As you say, it will always be possible to find a quotation here or a picture there to back up whatever assertion you want to make, but none of that can belie the fact of how we Scots actually dress, which is the point I think you are trying to make.

SteveB.

I have read your well written and well thought out piece and I agree with much of what you say.However my other theory and practice points in my opening post seem to have been lost in the fog. So I print Phil's pertinant post to illustrate and remind us all of the other point that I was making. With all due respect to you all, the first and second paragraphs of the first post on this thread does seem to have been "lost".

[Phil]

SteveB.

I have read your well written and well thought out piece and I agree wih much of what you say.However my other theory and practice points in my opening post seem to have been lost in the fog. So I print Phil's pertinant post to illustrate and remind us all of the other point that I was making. With all due respect to you all, the first and second paragraphs of the first post on this thread does seem to have been "lost".

I think, Jock, that a forum such as this does go a long way to educating people about the niceties of kilt-wearing from such blatant boo-boo's as having the pleats to the front a la Richard Branson to less obvious ones such as "Shir Shaun's" wearing evening dress to a daytime function or a tartan tie with a Prince Charlie. Then there are even less obvious ones such as wearing it at the top of the hip bone where it (usually) frames and accentuates the wearer's paunch instead of where it should be just below the rib cage where it hangs properly and flatters rather than accentuates a "gentleman of substance".
Anyway who could expect someone brought up in Fountainbridge in the back streets of Edinburgh to know how to dress properly. It is definitely time he joined this forum and got a few pointers. Whoever is selling him his outfits at the moment needs to hang his head in shame allowing him out in public like that.