To kilt or not to kilt: A St. Paddy's Day conundrum

[Bugbear]

Then why not wear a liene? It came before the kilt and it's definitely Irish.

Chef, I am working on getting a leine or liene. I'll have to go look up how to spell that again. But didn't the Irish also come up with the sauna, or a version of it? I might be all wrong on that, but if not there's another way to enjoy the seventeenth...

[vespa]

This may have been raised already so my apologies if it has. (I haven't had time to read all 17 pages) But St. Patrick was Scottish, born in Scotland in 372 AD so I don't see a problem with wearing a kilt to honor him.

slainte

Mark

[Ayin McFye]

This may have been raised already so my apologies if it has. (I haven't had time to read all 17 pages) But St. Patrick was Scottish, born in Scotland in 372 AD so I don't see a problem with wearing a kilt to honor him.

slainte

Mark

I'm not argueing with you but Wikipedia says that he was qoute "Saint Patrick (Latin: Patricius[2], Irish: Naomh Pádraig) was a Christian missionary and is the patron saint of Ireland along with Brigid of Kildare and Columba. Patrick was born in Roman Britain ."

Wouldn't that mean he was British?

[Zardoz]

I'm not argueing with you but Wikipedia says that he was qoute "Saint Patrick (Latin: Patricius[2], Irish: Naomh Pádraig) was a Christian missionary and is the patron saint of Ireland along with Brigid of Kildare and Columba. Patrick was born in Roman Britain ."

Wouldn't that mean he was British?

Actually a Roman citizen living in Britania.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This may have been raised already so my apologies if it has. (I haven't had time to read all 17 pages) But St. Patrick was Scottish, born in Scotland in 372 AD so I don't see a problem with wearing a kilt to honor him.

slainte

Mark

Mark, would it be possible to have a citation for the above referenced St. Patrick? I only ask because the Annals of Ulster mention two dates for the death of Patrick. The first date is 461AD, and that is the year that Bishop Palladius, known as Patrick, died. Palladius, from Brittany, was consecrated Bishop by Pope Celestine in 431AD and arrived in Ireland in 432AD. The Second Patrick, a Romano-Britain, is listed in the Annals as dying in 492AD. Now, if your year of birth for Patrick is correct (and I'm not disputing it) it would mean that he was either 89 years old at the time of his death (first Patrick), or 120 years old at the time of his death (second Patrick). Of course it is possible that there was a third Patrick, pre-dating both Patricks 1 & 2. This might offer a different explanation for the iconography of St Patrick holding a shamrock. Rather than representing the Trinity, it could be a cryptic reference to the Three Patricks.

Such are the beginnings of all conspiracy theories...

[Bugbear]

Although, I want a Leine that is pleated in the back. Also, I think the openable, robe-like front of the later leine would be nice as well. All I know is that jeans don't fit me very well; the inseam causes me problems; and I can't stand having to constantly pull my pants up or be squeezed by a belt. That is why I like to wear kilt like garments... But not in the sauna.

[vespa]

The source I read that in is Electricscotland.com It states he was born in Dumbarton, in the west of Scotland in about the year 372 of the Christian era. His Father Calpurnius it is supposed, came to Scotland in a civil capacity with the Roman troops. If you like you can read more on the Electricscotland website under the heading "History" then "Significant Scots" then "Patrick, Saint".

slainte

Mark

[macwilkin]

The source I read that in is Electricscotland.com It states he was born in Dumbarton, in the west of Scotland in about the year 372 of the Christian era. His Father Calpurnius it is supposed, came to Scotland in a civil capacity with the Roman troops. If you like you can read more on the Electricscotland website under the heading "History" then "Significant Scots" then "Patrick, Saint".

slainte

Mark

As Rathdown mentioned, there are several other theories of the origin of the "Patricks":

Somerset: http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/a...uestjelley.htm

Wales: http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southwest...patricks.shtml

Regards,

Todd

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The source I read that in is Electricscotland.com It states he was born in Dumbarton, in the west of Scotland in about the year 372 of the Christian era. His Father Calpurnius it is supposed, came to Scotland in a civil capacity with the Roman troops. If you like you can read more on the Electricscotland website under the heading "History" then "Significant Scots" then "Patrick, Saint".

slainte

Mark

Mark,
I think ElectricScotland may have blown a fuse... the Patrick they mention (born in 372AD) would have been 122 years old when the historical St. Patrick died in 492. That's remarkably old, even by today's standards. Had the historical St. Patrick lived that long it would not have escaped mention in the Irish Annals.

It is likely that the contributor to ElectricScotland has confused the birth date of Palladius, also called Patrick, First Bishop of Ireland (who died according to the Annals in 461 at the ripe old age of 89) with the younger Romano-Britain Patrick who succeeded Palladius in his ministry and died (according to the Annals) in 492.

The time-line works like this (based on the Annals):

Palladius/Patrick arrives in Ireland in 432;
Patrick the Britain arrives in Ireland in 457;
Palladius/Patrick dies in Ireland in 461;
Patrick the Britain dies in Ireland in 492

Because Patrick the Britain was at least 22 years old when he arrived in Ireland (he was sixteen when sold into slavery and spent six years in Ireland before escaping) he would have been born no later than 435.

And where was Patrick the Britain from? According to the man himself he was from Bannevem Taburniae; his grandfather, Potitus, was a priest and Patrick the Britain's father, Calpornius, was a deacon and decurio (a member of the municipal council).

Nowhere in his CONFESSION does Patrick the Britain mention he wore a kilt...

[vespa]

Mark,
I think ElectricScotland may have blown a fuse... the Patrick they mention (born in 372AD) would have been 122 years old when the historical St. Patrick died in 492. That's remarkably old, even by today's standards. Had the historical St. Patrick lived that long it would not have escaped mention in the Irish Annals.

It is likely that the contributor to ElectricScotland has confused the birth date of Palladius, also called Patrick, First Bishop of Ireland (who died according to the Annals in 461 at the ripe old age of 89) with the younger Romano-Britain Patrick who succeeded Palladius in his ministry and died (according to the Annals) in 492.

The time-line works like this (based on the Annals):

Palladius/Patrick arrives in Ireland in 432;
Patrick the Britain arrives in Ireland in 457;
Palladius/Patrick dies in Ireland in 461;
Patrick the Britain dies in Ireland in 492

Because Patrick the Britain was at least 22 years old when he arrived in Ireland (he was sixteen when sold into slavery and spent six years in Ireland before escaping) he would have been born no later than 435.

And where was Patrick the Britain from? According to the man himself he was from Bannevem Taburniae; his grandfather, Potitus, was a priest and Patrick the Britain's father, Calpornius, was a deacon and decurio (a member of the municipal council).

Nowhere in his CONFESSION does Patrick the Britain mention he wore a kilt...

Wow!, thanx for your research and the info.

slainte

Mark