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11th September 11, 05:02 PM
#131
*** Father Bill.
I think this horse is dead, as a mater of fact it is probaly glue by now
I am thick skinned, a product of my environment and chosen careers, from now on I will take a more measured approach in my responses out of consideration for those who might not be. Say goodnight Gracie!
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11th September 11, 05:25 PM
#132
OK, I must be reading the wrong threads here, or not reading the right threads. Until this thread I never noticed the "kilt cop" mentality on the forums. I have seen folks ask questions and get answers, well I can hardly blame the answer givers for answering a question asking for public opinion.
If someone posts about what color hose goes with a certain tartan or if they should wear a T-Shirt to a formal banquet (or a Montrose to a ren faire) they should not be surprised when they get a large amount of answers, some of which might even be helpful. I have learned allot about wearing kilts and other traditional wear, just by reading some of these threads. I hope they will never stop.
As for opinions, all my posts are my opinion. I don't think I should have to put down that this is my opinion, humble or otherwise, as it is implied by the fact that it is posted by me, under my screen name. I have found many people here that I agree with and disagree with on a variety of topics, not all of them kilt related. However it is the same in the real (non-internet) world also. So be it.
I also liked reading the results of Jock's poll, it was a very informative read and gave some insight into allot of things. It did not make me want to throw away my kilt, or stop wearing it. It does make one more mindful of the traditions we are emulating and the respect we should have for them, to read the opinions of highlanders and other Scots on these issues.
As for Father Bill's right to wear a kilt, well I am not sure there is anyone who can award or rescind that right, if it even exists. However even if we could say that by strict birth or national origin there was no right, I would offer that by ordination that right was conferred, in that there is a clergy tartan and he is now and forever clergy. This is much like a regimental tartan, the right to wear it goes with being part of the whole, not with being an individual.
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11th September 11, 11:13 PM
#133
Father Bill,and any others who may inadvertantly be upset by posts.
I have found that the grittier the debate gets,the more I end up admiring those with enough of the stiff upper lip to hold thier own,particularly the ones that can do so whilst obeying the queens rules,so to speak.
Was not this same grit needed on Floddens field,in the chiltroms of Falkirk,in the grape shot flayed lines waiting for the charge on Drummossie moor,in the thin red line that saved Sebastopol,or in the trenches on the Somme?For families with Scots blood this is part of the spirit that is awakened when the kilt is worn.Is not attraction to this 'aura' about the kilt also partly why it holds some attraction for you?
Then don't let the encouragements(I said encouragements)to toughen up be seen as anything more than a clear reminder of the ancestors of whose offsprings company you keep.It goes with this territory.
I hear you when you say responses can be controlled, feelings cannot.
But if you work through those feelings and reach a point where they won't beat you,then that is true toughness,is it not?
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12th September 11, 04:40 AM
#134
A bit of further explanation
 Originally Posted by AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH
Father Bill,and any others who may inadvertantly be upset by posts.
I have found that the grittier the debate gets,the more I end up admiring those with enough of the stiff upper lip to hold thier own,particularly the ones that can do so whilst obeying the queens rules,so to speak.
Was not this same grit needed on Floddens field,in the chiltroms of Falkirk,in the grape shot flayed lines waiting for the charge on Drummossie moor,in the thin red line that saved Sebastopol,or in the trenches on the Somme?For families with Scots blood this is part of the spirit that is awakened when the kilt is worn.Is not attraction to this 'aura' about the kilt also partly why it holds some attraction for you?
Then don't let the encouragements(I said encouragements)to toughen up be seen as anything more than a clear reminder of the ancestors of whose offsprings company you keep.It goes with this territory.
I hear you when you say responses can be controlled, feelings cannot.
But if you work through those feelings and reach a point where they won't beat you,then that is true toughness,is it not?
Well... yes . . . and no, my good friend. (And I do consider you as such for your many thoughtful insights!!)
I for one am much happier when simple discussion, either over a tipple or over the Internet, is governed by the Queen's rules, than by the rules of warfare. One is designed well for internal discussion, the other for external defence. I have deep respect for my military friends whose kindness is the first thing one sees in their personality. Here at XMarks though, we are in the business of enlightenment and encouragement, not the business of blood or killing. In times of peace, so are we all in the business of enlightenment and encouragement. Warfare is only ever just when used as a last resort.
Your advice to work through the feelings until they don't hurt is a wonderful insight. Thank you for pointing that out. Helping someone to do that however, is not the business of internal strife, but rather exactly the business of comfort. I note with deep respect the tears that I saw on the faces of brave souls yesterday at the Sept. 11 comemmorations. In part, those tears might express the comfort and solidarity those people felt for both those who had died, and for the comrades with whom they stood confidently shoulder to shoulder, knowing that those were the ones who would gladly lay down their lives for one another. That does not come from internal bickering but from absolute and earned trust.
And may I also emphasize that not all Scots (or members of any other culture) have been gritty warriors. I have deep and abiding respect for the many, many Scots for example, who have distinguished themselves in the fields of science, leadership, medicine, and civilization. That is a differfent form of grit at which respectfully marvel.
I guess what I'm saying is that we lose something, something very precious which those very Scots ancestors worked... and sometimes fought... to nurture when we are brusque or dismissive of others. I don't think it is truly the bedrock attitude of the great warrior. Those great warriors are rather the ones who fight only to preserve freedom and peace, and even then, there is, within their squadrons, a mutual camaraderie and kindly support which makes fighting groups function well and effectively.
No fighting platoon, company, or even the rabble or the "Rabble" fight effectively unless they know at the deepest and most vulnerable level that their comrades in arms "have their backs" and can be counted on for the most caring and gentle support, as well as the most decisive.
What we work for here is much less critical in this crazy world than the desperate goals that may sometimes justify bloody, gory warfare. What we work for here is the simple freedom to wear a garment we enjoy and love, and to do so well. So when we, the Great Rabble "go to war," let it be to support one another in building the freedom to wear our kilts, and in the sharing of well-researched knowledge and gentle perspective, not in unneccessarily divisive squabbles over "who can" and "how can" wear them. I love this forum precisely for its moderate and moderated gentle tone. I am saddened when it sometimes descends to hurtful - usually inadvertently hurtful remarks.
Thank you for a thoughtful response and I apologize to all; I had not intended to go on a such length - here endeth the lesson!
Rev'd Father Bill White: Mostly retired Parish Priest & former Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair with solid Welsh and other heritage.
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12th September 11, 06:03 AM
#135
 Originally Posted by Father Bill
I am saddened when it sometimes descends to hurtful - usually inadvertently hurtful remarks.
With all due respect...
Some people's "hurt" is nothing more than a simple "hello." Others are "hurt" when they feel ignored. Or not getting their own way immediately. Some...many...are "hurt" by truth.
Some people might be hurt by being called "Kilt Police" when all they were trying to do was offer some helpful advice.
Again, whose ox is being gored?
If disagreement or criticism (especially in a venue where discussion...and disagreement...are part of the package, so to speak) is so onerous and hurtful to someone that everyone else has to tip toe around them and freedom of speech is lost, then the possibility for real discussion and a real exchange of information is non-existent.
It just becomes an extended therapy session for people racked with insecurities.
When I was in jump school many years ago, the instructors would remind anyone who complained about push-ups or long, full kit runs that we had "volunteered for this chit!"
Wearing a kilt...and especially posting to an Internet discussion forum...are voluntary, last time I looked.
Last edited by DWFII; 12th September 11 at 06:10 AM.
DWFII--Traditionalist and Auld Crabbit
In the Highlands of Central Oregon
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12th September 11, 06:27 AM
#136
 Originally Posted by DWFII
With all due respect...
Some people's "hurt" is nothing more than a simple "hello." Others are "hurt" when they feel ignored. Or not getting their own way immediately. Some...many...are "hurt" by truth.
Some people might be hurt by being called "Kilt Police" when all they were trying to do was offer some helpful advice.
Again, whose ox is being gored?
If disagreement or criticism (especially in a venue where discussion...and disagreement...are part of the package, so to speak) is so onerous and hurtful to someone that everyone else has to tip toe around them and freedom of speech is lost, then the possibility for real discussion and a real exchange of information is non-existent.
It just becomes an extended therapy session for people racked with insecurities.
When I was in jump school many years ago, the instructors would remind anyone who complained about push-ups or long, full kit runs that we had "volunteered for this chit!"
Wearing a kilt...and especially posting to an Internet discussion forum...are voluntary, last time I looked.
Hi DWFII.
So this is jump school? And asking a question allows one to be "gored?" 
You make some good points, and you make them intelligently. I don't ask anyone to tiptoe - just remain polite and considerate as they offer their truths.
Truth is important and valued. So is offering it kindly. I am not criticizing those who thoughtfully, kindly, even politely offer the truth. I do however criticize those who aren't really open at the end of it all, to civil discourse, and once or twice I've seen just that. I hope it doesn't recur.
Bill+
Rev'd Father Bill White: Mostly retired Parish Priest & former Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair with solid Welsh and other heritage.
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12th September 11, 06:52 AM
#137
 Originally Posted by Father Bill
Hi DWFII.
So this is jump school?  And asking a question allows one to be "gored?"
You make some good points, and you make them intelligently. I don't ask anyone to tiptoe - just remain polite and considerate as they offer their truths.
Padre...
"So this is"...therapy?
Life itself is jump school and therapy for those who are open enough and willing to commit.
Truth is important and valued. So is offering it kindly. I am not criticizing those who thoughtfully, kindly, even politely offer the truth. I do however criticize those who aren't really open at the end of it all, to civil discourse, and once or twice I've seen just that. I hope it doesn't recur.
Bill+
Again, it's a matter of perspective--whether yours is, in fact, an ordinary ox or a "sacred cow."
DWFII--Traditionalist and Auld Crabbit
In the Highlands of Central Oregon
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12th September 11, 06:58 AM
#138
 Originally Posted by DWFII
Padre...
"So this is"...therapy?
Life itself is jump school and therapy for those who are open enough and willing to commit.
Again, it's a matter of perspective--whether yours is, in fact, an ordinary ox or a "sacred cow."
Well said, DWFII. I enjoy your ability with words.
I'm merely asking that folks remember that this is conversation, not combat. Most understand that well - you obviously do by the tenor, humour, and gentility of your comments. Please however, allow me to remind those who don't, of the nature of our engagement here.
Yours,
Bill+
Rev'd Father Bill White: Mostly retired Parish Priest & former Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair with solid Welsh and other heritage.
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12th September 11, 07:43 AM
#139
 Originally Posted by Father Bill
Well said, DWFII. I enjoy your ability with words.
I'm merely asking that folks remember that this is conversation, not combat. Most understand that well - you obviously do by the tenor, humour, and gentility of your comments. Please however, allow me to remind those who don't, of the nature of our engagement here.
Yours,
Bill+
Bill+,
You certainly don't need my permission to do that. In fact, I applaud your efforts in that regard.
I don't know who brought up the "military" allusion but I don't think it was me. I don't regard conversation as warfare although there is always an element of contention at some level or other if only because we are not all identical--despite efforts to force us into that mold.
In passing, I thank you for the kind words although I have to suspend disbelief a little as I contemplate the duties of a "man of the cloth."
Considering the number of times I've been on report (all of which were dismissed) I suspect many would disagree. Especially about my "humour." I thank you for recognizing that. Not many do. But then not many live in the desert...where everything is dry.
DWFII--Traditionalist and Auld Crabbit
In the Highlands of Central Oregon
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12th September 11, 07:48 AM
#140
 Originally Posted by DWFII
Bill+,
You certainly don't need my permission to do that. In fact, I applaud your efforts in that regard.
I don't know who brought up the "military" allusion but I don't think it was me. I don't regard conversation as warfare although there is always an element of contention at some level or other if only because we are not all identical--despite efforts to force us into that mold.
In passing, I thank you for the kind words although I have to suspend disbelief a little as I contemplate the duties of a "man of the cloth."
Considering the number of times I've been on report (all of which were dismissed) I suspect many would disagree. Especially about my "humour." I thank you for recognizing that. Not many do. But then not many live in the desert...where everything is dry.
Good for you my friend. 
And don't suspend your disbelief for the sake of my calling - I'm actually a nasty bougger - Don't forget, I used to be headmaster of a primary school, and I've had to apply more laws and regulations than I even remember any more - and toss people out of the building (sometimes physically) and build a wonderful relationship with the local constabulary, all of whom I loved as brothers and sisters.
Thanks for knowing whence I come.
Always in your corner,
Bill+
Rev'd Father Bill White: Mostly retired Parish Priest & former Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair with solid Welsh and other heritage.
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