Boy Scout kilts

[Downunder Kilt]

After a pm from Biathlonman, I rechecked with Scouts Australia, and was advised there is in fact regulations covering the wearing of kilts in Australia.

Kilts maybe worn by Scouts, but not Joey Scouts or Cubs.
The wearing of the kilt has to be authorised by the branch president.
The Scouter must be Scottish or of Scottish descent.
There is no mention of any particular tartan that must be worn

Thankyou Bialthlonman for the information

[Mike_Oettle]

Chas wrote: “There are provisions for wearing a kilt under the UK Scouting regulations, but that has nothing to do with what B-P wore. Some British scouts may wear a turban. Does that mean that B-P was a Sikh? Of course not! Don't mix the two up.”

Well, I certainly won’t make any claim for BP’s having worn the kilt.
But clearly if turbans are permitted as part of Scout uniform in Britain (anywhere in Britain), it would be ludicrous to ban kilts.
And what on earth are Scouts Canada doing with a rulebook that does just that on their piece of turf?
Regards,
Mike

[SlackerDrummer]

But clearly if turbans are permitted as part of Scout uniform in Britain (anywhere in Britain), it would be ludicrous to ban kilts.

Except in as much as the turban has religious as well as cultural significance.

[Biathlonman]

I have not been a Scout leader for a few years now, but Scouts here include girls - and there's a certain amount of political correctness to the attitude towards uniforms. With declining participation, Scouts Canada was desperate and seized on the uniform as an obstacle.

I have no problem at all with Sikh scouts wearing a turban - our police and military accommodate that too - but when I was told I couldn't wear a kilt with my uniform instead of the normal blue pants or shorts, I knew there was a problem. Scouts Canada saw kids rejecting any kind of uniform based on focus group research they did. "Impractical and militaristic" they called it, so its anything goes now. The kids, rather than the leaders, decide. I know enough about these surveys to know you can get practically any answer you want, depending on how you word the question. But I do believe that when you see a group of Scouts, you they should be recognizable in some way. That's how you preserve your 'brand".

I was also a US Boy Scout in the 60's and the inspections and high standards had a point to them. The Americans haven't watered down their programs like we have either. I should add that senior Scout leaders would often do as I did - wear their kilt with their Scout shirt on special occasions. The question of whether BP wore a kilt is a moot point - several British Chief Scouts since have done so.
Here's an irony - we have an active Cadet movement in Canada - Air, Army and Sea. Cadets adhere to uniform rules in the strictest possible way - and the kids seem to like it - it is all peer pressure, and whatever the group is doing. And you do see kilted Cadet pipers too. You can learn to play the pipes in Cadets.

Scouts notwithstanding, this is one of the most kilt-friendly countries in the world - and it is not unusual to see a Black RSM in in a Highland reserve regiment. Very Canadian that.

One little anecdote more: I was leaving a formal occasion with a foreign diplomat (female) and her male spouse - the spouse is a Brit. He'd like to get Highland Formal wear. Crossing an intersection, a group of attractive young women shouted to me from a car - "Hooray for the Kilt - Looks great!" I turned to him and said, "If you were dressed like me, that could have been for you."' Our wives laughed at the situation - It was absolute perfection.
Canadians do appreciate kilts on men - no question.

[Mike_Oettle]

SlackerDrummer wrote regarding kilts v turbans: “Except in as much as the turban has religious as well as cultural significance.”

So are you saying pagan (and foreign) religion trumps indigenous British culture?
And don’t read this the wrong way. I am not trashing anyone’s religion, but it seems that religion is used as a trump card to gain unfair advantage for non-British customs.
After all, a Sikh’s turban is as much a cultural identifier as a kilt, regardless of any religious significance.
Similarly, the kilt is quite definitely part of Canadian culture, even if only a certain proportion of the country’s population wears them.
If this were not so, how is it then that every single province and territory of Canada has its own tartan, not to mention many smaller districts within Canada?
Regards,
Mike

[Chas]

Hello All,

I think that there is more than one issue here, but unfortunately all the different strands have been woven together and throughly mixed-up.

1 Each National Scout Association has the right to set its own rules within the broad framework of Scouting. Included in this is Uniform Regulations. What one country does or allows has no bearing on another country. Rich countries tend to set far more stringent regulations. I have met Scouts from a poor African country, who's uniform was the neckerchief and a shirt that was 'broadly within the colourway'.

2 Lord Baden-Powel never wore a kilt. But in the UK any member who claims Scottish ancestry may wear the kilt. No birth certificates are required, a simple declaration by the Scout (Scouter) is enough. The Scout Association is wise enough to know that not all children are born on the right side of the blanket. Why stigmatise a child more?
By the same token, B-P was not a good driver. Although he owned a Rolls-Royce (a gift by the Scouts of the UK), he by far preferred the train or a horse, rather than horsepower. Should B-P's lack of driving expertise stop Scouts or Scouters from learning to drive? We would never question our right to drive, why then must we try and base our kilt wearing on something that never happened or what we believe someone else did?

3 In the UK we have three branches of Scouting - Land, Sea and Air. Each wear a distinctive uniform, but the Land Scouting uniform is the default. If a Scout (Scouter) wishes to wear the kilt he must wear the Land Scout uniform (regardless of branch). I ran a very successful Air Scout Troop for many years. My Assistant Leader was Andrew Berry (a very Scottish Scotsman). He wore an Anderson tartan kilt with the default (Land) uniform. That is the compromise, if you want to wear the kilt, you have the one choice of uniform.
Will the regulations change? In time I believe so. The Air and Sea Scout branches are mainly populated by service children and the leaders are servicemen. The military being as it is, people more around on a regular basis and although it would be cheaper to keep one uniform, the boys want to belong to the new Troop and wear the new shirt.

4 Uniform Regulations change as a population changes. As style and fashion changes so to do the Regulations. It is no good having a uniform that the boys are too embarrassed to wear. It is really only in the last 20 years or so that Uniform Regulations in the western world have been codified and enforced. (Yes, I know that there have been regulations since 1908, but if a boy could not afford the uniform he was not turned away - at least not in the UK.)

5 All Scout Associations know that all boys are different. That is why the programmes allow for both the 'jock' and the 'geek' and all the boys in between. Sticking boys in one 'uniform for all' tends to stifle individuality. The Scout Association is not a para-military organisation. If the boys want something of that nature, there are plenty of cadet units run on military lines.

6 If members of the BSA want change, then they must start agitating for change. But be wise and build your house upon a rock and not upon the sand. Do it because it will enhance the uniform, will allow for freedom of choice, will allow for ethnic diversity, will allow for cultural identity. Do not do it because of a myth. Talking about it on a kilt forum is all well and good, but how many of the BSA Board are members here?

Regards

Yours in Scouting

Chas

[macwilkin]

SlackerDrummer wrote regarding kilts v turbans: “Except in as much as the turban has religious as well as cultural significance.”

So are you saying pagan (and foreign) religion trumps indigenous British culture?
And don’t read this the wrong way. I am not trashing anyone’s religion, but it seems that religion is used as a trump card to gain unfair advantage for non-British customs.
After all, a Sikh’s turban is as much a cultural identifier as a kilt, regardless of any religious significance.
Similarly, the kilt is quite definitely part of Canadian culture, even if only a certain proportion of the country’s population wears them.
If this were not so, how is it then that every single province and territory of Canada has its own tartan, not to mention many smaller districts within Canada?
Regards,
Mike

Mike,

While I agree with your point, it should be pointed out that the Sikh regiments, much like Johnny Gurkha, had a strong relationship with Highland regiments stationed on the Northwest Frontier and other parts of the Empire. Rattray's Sikhs, now part of the Indian Army's Sikh Regiment, still wear the tartan of their founder, and members of the regiment are also members of the Clan Rattray Society.

My grandfather spoke very highly of the Sikh troops and policemen he observed in India. I was disappointed to see the MoD turn down the idea of a British Sikh Regiment several years ago.

It's a pity that some in the Scouting movement have turned against its own history; The whole reason why B-P started the group was to provide young Britons with military training after his own experiences in the Boer War (as you well know). I would be more likely to send my son to the Sea Cadets or the Civil Air Patrol than Scouting, although the organization still is a good one. The quote from Chesterton in my signature is all too appropriate for the times we live in.

T.

[SlackerDrummer]

So are you saying pagan (and foreign) religion trumps indigenous British culture?

I'm not saying it. The scouts are saying it.

I can't speak to scouting organizations worldwide, but in the Boy Scouts of America there are Religious Emblems Programs...no Cultural Identity Program. I don't know how universal the Scout Law is, but I grew up saying, "A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent." Nowhere in there is included "culturally aware".

While a turban may be both religious and cultural, it is religious. And religion is a cornerstone of Scouting.

[OftKilted]

Disclaimer: I'm not a BP Scout.

Based off of information available online:
http://www.10thdanielboone.org/wp-co...out-Manual.pdf

"Shorts. – Blue, khaki or grey. Kilts, with plain leather sporrans, may be worn by any troop in Scotland; also, in other countries, by Groups of which every member is of Scottish descent, i.e. has at least one grandparent of pure Scottish blood and provided they all wear the kilt. Groups in Ireland or of Irish descent may wear kilt under similar conditions" p.6

and

http://www.1stmerrickville.ca/scouts...PWhandbook.pdf

"Kilt: Family tartan, or Association tartan (Hunting Stewart).
(B-P Woodsman must have Scottish or Irish Background to
wear the Kilt)" p.3

As an addendum:

"Scouts in camp may, at the discretion of the Scoutmaster, wear any clothing they desire, but whenever they appear in public outside the camp limits they must be properly dressed." p.6, BPS Traditional Scouting Manual

While these are just two examples, and I am sure there are others for official 'wearing the kilt as a B P Scout.'

[Mike_Oettle]

SlackerDrummer wrote: “While a turban may be both religious and cultural, it is religious. And religion is a cornerstone of Scouting.”

While this is a valid point – I know of any number of Scout troops that fall under the ægis of local Anglican or Roman Catholic parishes, or Presbyterian churches, not to mention Jewish, Sikh or Hindu troops – it still seems to sidestep the issue here, which (for us at any rate) is whether the kilt is acceptable as part of the Scout uniform.
And ultimately that is a question of culture, not of religion.
A Presbyterian troop might wear the kilt because of the strong Scottish associations of its members, or of its founder. Or it might wear tartan for (or as part of) its scarf. But this is decided not on the issue of tartan or the kilt belonging to the Christian Faith, but because of cultural affinities.
Remember that when Jewish troops were formed in Scotland between the wars, they all wore the kilt. There was no question of their not doing so: they were in Scotland.
While I have heard that some rabbis do not regard the kilt as being manly, I can also tell you of members of my regiment who have attended shul in kilt and tammie.

Having said that, SlackerDrummer, I must apologise for imputing that the anti-kilt attitude was yours. Certainly we are discussing the attitude of Scouting associations.

Terry, while I had not heard of the proposal for a British Sikh regiment, it does make sense. There are, after all, still Gurkha regiments in the British Army (for all that they were originally raised under the Raj), besides the Gurkha/Gorkha units of the Indian and Pakistani armies. (Do they even serve Nepal any more?)
British folk might have reservations about Sikhs fighting for Queen and country, but I would far rather see Sikh militancy being expressed by means of an infantry regiment under the Crown than on the streets of England and Scotland.
Regards,
Mike