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4th December 12, 07:12 AM
#151
Just another wee thought lest we Scots are felt to have been rude.
Many Scots would like this to be our National Anthem
http://www.rabbie-burns.com/the_poem...saman.cfm.html
Strange to have a National Anthem that does not mention the nation. It's the last verse that matters.
Last edited by neloon; 4th December 12 at 11:23 AM.
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4th December 12, 07:39 AM
#152
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by neloon
Just another wee thought lest we Scots seem to have been rude.
Many Scots would like this to be our National Anthem
http://www.rabbie-burns.com/the_poem...saman.cfm.html
Strange to have a National Anthem that does not mention the nation. It's the last verse that matters.
And it was sung at the opening of the re-instated Scots Parliament. Wonder what views her Maj had listening to it at the time?
I do believe Burns never wore a kilt so how apposite it is to this discussion may be doubtful.
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4th December 12, 07:46 AM
#153
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by MacSpadger
There is a guy who lives locally who wears the kilt regularly who is not a piper, not an ex-soldier and has no Gaelic. He is considered an attention seeking nutter, a wanna-be, a fake, a phony, a dreamer, a ne'er-do-well, a waster, etc. That's a Scottish viewpoint on another kilt wearing Scot, never mind the Scottish viewpoint on a similarly garbed American.
One one hand, this makes perfect sense. An American who wore 19th-century outfits as daily dress would be regarded with equal skepticism.
On the other hand, it seems odd to abuse someone who is maintaining the tradition that is supposedly so valued -- that of wearing the kilt as everyday dress. It's as if this bit of history is to be hermetically sealed, not to be touched by any but a select few.
The objection would make more sense to me if the kilt had only been worn as military or ceremonial dress with a specific purpose. No culture likes to see their traditions cheapened. But we're talking about everyday clothing worn by working men.
If you're saying that the kilt in Scotland has become ceremonial dress, so that everyday use is seen as an insult, that's a interesting point to ponder.
I understand the dislike for the "Americanification" of the native culture. As an American I'm no fan of the way our multinationals stamp their brands on the landscape, and McKilts as marketing tools would be an insult. No argument there.
Still, from my perspective, wearing the kilt with respect and a knowledge of the history seems a far better way to celebrate it.
Last edited by Angstrom; 4th December 12 at 07:50 AM.
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4th December 12, 07:48 AM
#154
I've read over this entire thread. Steve made some spot on observations about "foreigners" wearing a kilt in Scotland and the Scottish reactions to the wearing of the kilt. I also agree that no American (or Australian, Canadian, etc) should tell a Native Born Scot that how he is wearing the kilt is wrong, as this does smack of insolence, even if the person is wearing it wrong.
The thing I find is often overlooked in threads like this is that we are all humans first, then nationals of a certain country. Humans do make mistakes. People often take for granted that just because someone is Scottish, that they know how a kilt is properly worn. My honest question, without any malice intended, is that if someone wears a kilt for formal events only (and let's face it, how often does the 'average Joe' in Scotland or the US have a formal event... once or twice a year at most?), how well do you think he understands the nuances of that type of dress? I've been "corrected" a few times over a 10 year period by Scottish women (assumed they were raised there by the accent) who explain to me that a sporran should be worn on the side, Sgian Dubhs should be worn on the inside of the leg and/or fully down inside the hose, etc. They're wrong (and I know it, but don't SAY it), but I politely explain that I'm a kilt maker by trade and that there is more than 1 proper way to wear a sporran and I wear mine in the front, my Sgian Dubh on the outside of my dominant hand leg, etc.
On XMARKS, a big deal is made, often in jest, about cream colored hose. The truth of it, to the best of my understanding, as explained to me by people in the highland wear industry in Scotland who manufacture hose, is that the "rise of cream hose" was associated most often with the boom in the hire trade in the mid 1990's which followed the rise in feelings of Scottish Nationalism. As the [Scottish] kilt hire trade was looking for the cheapest source for hose that would match any tartan, they turned, almost uniformly, to cream hose. It was Scottish kilt hire patrons and Scottish kilt hire companies that set that ball in motion. Often Americans are unaware of what is the 'correct' color to wear and it's honestly the question I get most often about hose... "Since I'm wearing a PC jacket, don't I have to wear Cream Hose as they're the most formal?" I would suggest / speculate that it's most likely b/c they've seen images of Scots, in formal dress, wearing cream hose.
Likewise, it's often said that many Americans don't know how to dress properly when it comes to highland wear and we DO have excellent examples and 'tutors' on XMARKS like our wonderful Jock Scot. He's a smashing example of 'how it's done properly and I often read his posts with that in mind, even when I disagree with him. I keep in mind that he's up here to help guide others and he may know better than me on certain topics and I've learned a lot from him. That being said, there are MANY examples of Scots who should know 'how it's done' who do not and prove time and time again that we're just humans, wearing clothing with certain guidelines which aren't always known and/or followed.
A shining example of this type of thing is Mr. Sean Connery. He was born and bred in Scotland, yet when you see pictures of him in his PC Jacket, even you Jock would agree that he's not always got an outfit that's "dialed in" for the event he's attending, nor is he always correct in his mixing and matching of items (tartan necktie with PC jacket and another tartan kilt). To use the hose example, here he is wearing cream hose:
![](http://www.kiltmen.com/celeb-connery2.JPG)
A second example was a personal experience from St. Andrews day dinner last week. The speaker was George Islay MacNeill Robertson, Baron Robertson of Port Ellen. To most Americans I suspect he's unknown, but he was elected to British Parliment in 1978 and in 1997 was appointed Defense Secretary for the UK. In 1999 he was named secretary of NATO. He was named (by Queen Elizabeth) a Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle. He was born and raised in Scotland. Here's his Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_..._of_Port_Ellen At the black tie dinner I attended, he was the guest of honor and gave a captivating speech on his service to his country, the state of the UK, poked fun at himself with a few jokes and discussed the Secessionist movement and vote in 2014. I'm sure he's been to DOZENS of black tie dinners in his career. To this dinner (which was in America), he wore a PC jacket / vest with black bow tie, white kilt hose and a leather day sporran. I think we'd agree that this is a faux pas based on traditional standards.
Point is, we're all human and all make mistakes / faux pas, regardless of country of origin. Even those who should know, often don't. I'd ask that we keep that in mind when guiding people (newbies as well as some seasoned kilt wearers) on how it's done, as that is often up for interpretation, even when it shouldn't be.
Last edited by RockyR; 4th December 12 at 08:19 AM.
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4th December 12, 07:51 AM
#155
I have a quibble with MacSpadger's excellent post. He remarks on a "big powerful wealthy country" - the USA - borrowing, and even "stealing", the unique culture/dress of Scotland. But, this does not take into account one very important factor: the vast numbers of Scots who came to live in America (and Canada, for that matter) who brought their culture with them. Many aspects of Scottish culture have been transplanted, as opposed to stolen. The same can be said of African, Irish, German, Italian, and a host of other cultures.
And it must be stated again. We're kilt-enthusiasts on this board, but the numbers of Americans who actually concern themselves with kilts and/or other aspects of Scottish culture are miniscule in the extreme, and this holds true for the vast majority of folks of Scottish and even Highland descent, as well....
Brian
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
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4th December 12, 07:57 AM
#156
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by neloon
Domehead,
My only reason for not responding to your original question was your use of the phrase "who feel as Jock does" - which I don't.
I am very happy that your Grandparents espressed the longing for Scotland that I'm sure they felt by sporting tartan. And I am equally pleased that you feel able to at least partly identify with Scotland. Maybe you will not be "the last" in your family, so for just now you are a potential link to the future.
You're correct. My apologies - that didn't convey what I intended. What I intended was...
You clearly stated that you've rarely, if ever, encountered the position Jock takes. But, Jock contends it exists. Assuming (dangerous) this to be true then, is it fair for me to suppose ex-pats, although blessed by countrymen to seek pastures new, also knowingly abrogate parts of their cultural identity?
This goes to the OP's question, in that: if Jock's position, however limited in scope, seems to suggest that a person; born and raised in Wick; a confortable kilt wearer; re-locates to Florida for the Grandkids must no longer wear Highland attire because of location.
I can't wrap my head around that. Perhaps that is why you've never encountered the sentiment.
Last edited by Domehead; 4th December 12 at 05:57 PM.
Reason: spelling
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4th December 12, 08:02 AM
#157
pugcasso, I really didn't want to contribute anything further to this sad thread, but I will come back in to say that you you misread my post. I don't have an opinion about this guy really, but locally when events are being organised, at the moment mainly political events to do with 2014, but also for things such as functions, people might say;
"What about XXXXX, shall we get him involved?"
"Naw, he is an attention seeking nutter".
"Watch out for XXXXX, he is only trying to get in the local paper again".
"Steer clear of XXXXX, he is an attention seeking waste of time",
"Don't tell XXXXX about the charity do next month, he will contribute nothing to it, but on the night will be there in his kilt pushing his way to the front for the photo taking", etc, etc.
This and similar things were said to me about the fellah when I moved into the area.
The guy wears a kilt, likes having his photo taken and goes on and on and on about "The Picts" while not having a clue about the Scottish culture that is on his doorstep. Come the summer he heads to the tourist hotspots and gets his picture taken with said tourists, who tip him with cash in return. That's not my opinion, that's what he does.
The OP was asking about reaction in Scotland specifically. I was merely pointing out by mentioning this guy that you don't have to be American to get a negative reaction to wearing a kilt in Scotland, simple as that. There's also areas in Scotland where wearing a kilt means risking getting your head kicked in, irregardless of nationality.
Nor do you have to be a piper, or a soldier, or a Gaelic speaker, although if you are any of the former, there will be some form of recognition, (rightly or wrongly), that you will have some understanding of the history and culture of the garment and what it may represent to us natives, in other words, you are according due respect. If you are asked, (in Scotland), why you are wearing your kilt when you are not going to a wedding, a sorting event, attending a local games, stewarding, or going to a "do" of some kind, etc, membership of the 3 credentials given by me will cease any further questioning, (and that is my opinion, this time).
You can also get away with it if you are a member of the aristocracy or a celebrity. To return to the kilt wearing local in question, I think in his head he is already a celebrity. This is the opposite of what native Scots have previously requested in this thread and others, some kind of respect for the culture surrounding the kilt. It's NOT "blue jeans" or a "baseball cap" or casual clothing, anymore than a Samurai warrior's.
But that's how this guy is percieved in Scotland by fellow Scots that I know. My location is no secret, so perhaps I have given too much away by giving the nod that this occurs round the Kilpatrick Hills area to the north west of Glasgow, heading towards Loch Lomond. I am not commenting on how people think in Halifax, or Canada, or the USA or anywhere else, bar my locale, which happens to be in Scotland. Please don't try and put your words in my mouth, nor your thoughts in my head. I am not commenting about your country, only attempting to express a viewpoint, (that's not entirely my own) in regard to the OP. I still think Steve Ashton's reply is the best. I would never talk like that to any kilt wearing visitor to Scotland, but, sadly, I do hear that kind of thing, or see kilt wearing visitors given filthy looks, quite frequently. Steve's experience is sadly common.
To be perfectly honest, I keep most of my opinions to myself and mainly post on historical or traditional topics here, you know, the factual stuff rather than the opinion based. I have learned that's the best way to avoid being totally browbeaten on here. Sad, but there you go.
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4th December 12, 09:08 AM
#158
Thank you to all who have participated in this thread. It's good to read and try to understand the range of views presented.
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4th December 12, 11:51 AM
#159
A short story if I may,
Back in the late 60's a small boy was taken with his family on a touring holiday in Scotland, they visited many of the well known destinations, The Edinburgh Tattoo, Callender where Dr Finlays Casebook was filmed, Rabbie Burns Cottage, the Fortingall Yew, Iona, Loch Ness, many other fantastic locations in a magical and mystical land. The small boy and his family ended up at Culloden. On a damp and drizzly day the famous battleground was more of a playground to a 6 year old. However there was a shack which sold Clan memorabilia. The small boy scoured the list of sept names only to find that his surname did not match any of the known Clan Septs. However there was a match through the maternal line. The little boy was overjoyed that he belonged through his mother to the Clan Cameron. He was equally overjoyed that his parents bought him a bow tie in Cameron Tartan. That little boy never forgot his Clan affiliation and many years later proudly still states his affiliation to "his Clan".
44 Years have passed since that day and the little boy is a grown man who still feels the same as he did when he was 6 years old. Proud of the fact that his forbears joined with Bonnie Prince Charlie at the raising of the Standard at Glenfinnan and no-one can ever tell him that he would not be welcome to join his Clansmen in their time of need.
Yes he is technically English and yes he may not be entitled to wear a kilt in the strictest interpretation. But it is how he feels in his heart. He will wear the kilt and if anyone has a problem with that, then that is their problem not that little 6 year old who had a dream and is now living that dream.
Friends stay in touch on FB simon Taylor-dando
Best regards
Simon
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4th December 12, 02:30 PM
#160
Off Topic Post Alert
To those who may visit Scotland and are hesitant being kilted. My experience.
I read the first day of postings when it was posted, and haven’t been back till today when I read this thread through.
I started wearing the kilt 15 years ago due to my pride of and interest in my Scottish ancestry. Today, I also wear it out for its comfort and as a conversation piece. It’s the best tool I have to find people with Scottish ancestry who might be interested in our local Scottish Society. Besides its ‘fun’ to be kilted! I do enjoy the attraction it has.
I’m always kilted on Fridays at my full time job. I wear a tartan kilt. I have a part time job and on Sundays when I work there I wear a khaki colored kilt to conform to my employer’s uniform policy. On Scottish Society meeting days and Scottish history event days I’ll wear a kilt, also. So, I would say I can be kilted at least three days a week here in the states, but always two.
My last two trips to Scotland (’09 & ’11) I was kilted full time. I enjoyed the attention from fellow tourist who wanted my photo. As said by others they didn’t care a hoot I wasn’t Scottish. Anyone would know that as soon as I opened my mouth. On my first trip (1970) to the UK, my Mum’s uncle, James Robertson, Captain of the Kings Regiment, Liverpool kept telling me, “Lad speak the Kings English!”
I wasn’t playing a Scotsman. If I were, I wouldn’t be kilted would I? I know the kilt is reserved for the few Scots who have them for weddings and funerals. No, I enjoy being kilted. I was on holiday and to be kilted in Scotland was an enjoyable experience for me. In fairness to those Scots; I had one tank, a Newsome boxpleat, and from Rocky a Semi-trad and a casual. Easy peasy!
I know some may have talked behind my back. I didn’t care. I experienced good feelings from the Scots I encountered about being kilted. A Scottish matron I encountered affectionately patted my rump and gave a friendly wave as she was pushed in her wheelchair behind me.
I plan to be back in 2014 and will be kilted, again. On that trip, I also plan to travel south and go back to Liverpool. There I will wear trousers (I think). However, I am looking forward to be kilted when the English Bloke and I share a pint somewhere south of the Scottish border.
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