Attitudes To The Kilt.

[highlander_Daz]

What a lot of people are not grasping is the fact that people would choose a clan then in many cases adopt the surname of that clan, not the other way round, haveing forenames and surnames is a relatively recent development, not all people with the same surname are related, in Scotland its still the case that you can legally call yourself what you like (as long its not for fraudllant purposes). just becasuse you have for example, a McDonald ancestor, it doesnt mean they were part of the clan McDonald or your related to other McDonalds, all it really tells you is that at some stage you had an ancestor with a father called Donald !

All lot of clan mythology is perpetuated by people selling "tartanarama" -heres YOUR Tartan. we all liike to look back on the time when the clan system was in place but many clan chiefs were basically "gangsters", who were interested in obtaining livestock or land by any means.

I agree with mike T shirts that portray negative stereotypes of any country are a disgrace and I hope people wont fall into the trap of wearing these because they think "its just a laugh"
Scots are supposed to be tight with money yet Scots donated (worked out pro rata) more to the Tsunami relief than any other part of the UK. (oops off topic)

I know that people are very proud of Scottish family connections, and one gentleman was bemoning the lack of any Scots ancester, Scotland has always welcomed immigrants-the Irish are the back bone of Glasgow! find a clan association thatyou like the sound of and join it, get involved, become a regional rep. thats what the clan system was for to bring people together.

[dano9672]

Just taking the piss, mate.....One of my dear friends is a Campbell and we love having a shot at each other from time to time.

One of my friends is a Campbell as well. When I chose to 'beard' him the last time he replied, "Hey, the English paid well!"

[MacHanson]

Mac your just quoting from the Mackenzie website and thats their rules, many clan associations have different rules, several people have written to clan chiefs and got a respose along the lines of -you can wear our Tartan as long as you do so with pride and respect, Just because the MacKenzies dont want to do this, doesnt mean every Clan association does, I think your right in that there should be some kind of connection but many clan associations would be happy for people to wear "their" tartans maybe its economics but the macKenzie rules seem very strict and a complete contradiction one rule states
"no one should wear a tartan to which he is not by name or descent entitled." key word being "descent" then rule
"2. You have no real right to wear your mother's tartan unless you have taken her name." are we not descended from our mothers?
Ive just checked the mackenzie website
http://www.clan-mackenzie.org.uk/
and the president of the association is a Dr. Ian Blake -who of course using the Mackenzie rules would not be allowed to wear the Tartan of the association that he is president of!!! not being a Mackenzie or Blake not being a sept!!
very inconvenient!

According to Electric Scotland at http://www.electricscotland.com/webc...phabetical.htm, Blake is a sept of Lamont. What a joke! Dr. Ian Blake is the President of the Clan MacKenzie Society and he is not even a MacKenzie! The Vice President is Hugh Courtney. Also not a MacKenzie sept. They also have Clan Committee members that have a hyphenated last name indicating they are claiming maternal affiliation, such as Brian MacKenzie-Hanson, the Clan MacKenzie webmaster.

I'll lay you odds that ALL of these non-MacKenzie's wear the MacKenzie tartan in contradiction of their published clan rules.

It makes you wonder!

Mark in CA (and Highlander_Daz) !

I have just discovered your derogatory e-mail message that you posted on 31st May 2005 (see below), and which insults my name and those of other Clan Mackenzie members. Mark, from one ex-Military policeman to another - you were bang out of order!

In your e-mail you are scornful of everyone who is associated with the Mackenzie Clan not holding the sole name of "Mackenzie" as you believe this to be against the published Clan rules. You are actually mistaken when you refer to the Published Clan Rules. I include a summary of these rules below for your perusal, which are on the Clan Mackenzie Website and are quotation of the established rules (NOT just Mackenzie rules); you will see that anyone from a maternal branch may belong to the Clan and wear the tartan if they take the clan's name or a Sept name, also those with a benevolent interest in a Clan may join a Clan Society as Cliathe where they may be granted permission to wear the tartan (usually a hunting set). You split hairs by accusing the site of being contradictory by jumping the ambiguity of the term "descent", but this is clarified by the second point, there is no contradiction.

Any member of a Clan Society, having already served a term of office on the committee, is entitled to stand candidate to be elected as President. See the CMS Constitution <www.clan-mackenzie.org.uk/clan/constitution.html>.

Prior to the Jacobite rising many people worked for and had allegiance to their local Lord who was not necessarily the same family, this is how Septs came about and is why a particular Sept name can be listed against several Clans. The Sept lists you read are really only a rough guide as many families which were related to the Clan remained loyal!

The rules pertaining to the wearing of tartan are really only a recent fashion in Scotland's history, i.e. since the 18th century. The Seaforth Highlanders regiment (Ross-shire Buffs, 78th Foot etc) wore the Mackenzie tartan for 216 years which included people from all around Scotland and few of them were actually Mackenzies.

It is perfectly acceptable for a daughter branch of a family to inherit a title and estates when they are the legal surviving heirs, in such cases the family adopts the Clan name in accordance with the rules of the Scottish clan system. There are very few Clan Chiefs left today who can boast an unbroken male line of descent. Many male members of the Clan Mackenzie have taken the Genetic fingerprint test and are proving that they posses the Mackenzie "Y" gene.

You are critical of people by name, including myself, who you know nothing about and who have done nothing to you. I am not actually a committee member and there are presently no committee members with hyphenated surnames. Peadair Mackenzie is now the President of the Clan Mackenzie Society, Dr Ian Blake (Past President) is a descendant of the Mackenzies of Gairloch to which he remains loyal, this branch of the Mackenzies prides itself on its unbroken male line of descent from the first Chief. My own family has held the hyphenated surname "Mackenzie-Hanson" for 161 years, we are the descendents and legal heirs of the Mackenzies of Strathgarve and have every right to belong to the Clan Mackenzie and to wear the Clan Mackenzie Tartan by Law and by the rules of the Scottish Clan System.

I take great exception to your remarks and I suggest that you get your facts right before slanging people off in public!

The following is taken from the Clan Mackenzie Society website <www.clan-mackenzie.org.uk/clan/tartan.html#clan_system>

The rules of the Scottish clan system (I quote): Excepting the "District", "Caledonia" and "Jacobite" tartans, no one should wear a tartan to which he is not by name or descent entitled. To do so is foolish and ill-mannered, invites scorn, and is contrary to the whole principle of the clan system. Nor does one "select" tartans from this or that "line" of ancestors. The vital question is, "To which Clan do I belong?"

1. You "belong" to the clan of which you bear the name or sept name.

2. You have no real right to wear your mother's tartan unless you have taken her name.

3. You cannot belong to several clans at once.

4. Adherents (cliathe) of non-clan names are, as followers, sometimes allowed to wear the tartan (usually a hunting set if any) and to become members of a clan society.

See also the Constitution of the Clan Mackenzie Society of Scotland & the UK <www.clan-mackenzie.org.uk/clan/constitution.html>.

[Magnus Sporrano]

Are clan members really that protective that they would take offense at my wearing their tartan?

There are a few ignorant weekend wallaces that might try to make your life difficult, but it trips them up when you point out that the pleats are supposed to go in the back and the apron in the front. Then they have to run off and fix their attire, thus leaving you alone.

I wear the kilt in public very often, whatever tartan suits my fancy that day (or sometimes no tartan at all... if I feel like MARPAT camoflage) and it's not been a problem. More than anything, I've had people approach me and tell me they appreciate seeing a man walking about in public in the kilt and looking like a real man while doing so.

[Magnus Sporrano]

Dr Ian Blake (Past President) is a descendant of the Mackenzies of Gairloch to which he remains loyal, this branch of the Mackenzies prides itself on its unbroken male line of descent from the first Chief.
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You never addressed how the surname Blake entitles one to wear the clan tartan if it's not even one of the septs of the clan. Dr. Blake has not adopted a clan or sept name. I am offering no offense to him or to you. I just think there is still a very clear hypocrisy between the written rules of the clan society and the leadership's adherence to those rules, with specific regard to surnames.

[Colin]

There are a few ignorant weekend wallaces that might try to make your life difficult, but it trips them up when you point out that the pleats are supposed to go in the back and the apron in the front. Then they have to run off and fix their attire, thus leaving you alone.

I wear the kilt in public very often, whatever tartan suits my fancy that day (or sometimes no tartan at all... if I feel like MARPAT camoflage) and it's not been a problem. More than anything, I've had people approach me and tell me they appreciate seeing a man walking about in public in the kilt and looking like a real man while doing so.

Let's not go through this again guys. This is not a pissing contest on who ha smore entitlement to the kilt or who wears it more often. Some of you guys are now full time kilt wearers....good for you. I am glad you enjoy it and it works for you. I on the other hand have been wearing kilts for almost 3 years. I have no desire to be a full timer, nor do I feel I need to defend that position.

If the so called "weekend Wallaces" (what a ***** expression that is!) had not worn their kilts to Scottish events and kept that aspect of culture alive, none us us would be wearing kilts today. They would have died out long ago and been replaced with trousers. So, let's not insult people with a moniker simply because they choose to only wear their kilts at certain occasions. Some of thes people may have been wearing kilts for generations (likely not the one's with the pleat in the front granted) and that heritage and tradition deserves respect as well. A lot of miles on your car doesn't mean you are a better driver than the guy that only drives on the weekends.

Not all of us see this as a fashion revolution or a cause. I wear my kilts because they represent my heritage and I enjoy them. I am not trying to convert people to my beliefs in the hopes of seeing every man kilted. If that were to happen, I would go back to pants only

It really seems like people that favour comtemporary kilts for regular wear really get their back up when they are questioned by someone with a more traditional approach. Yet they are also very insulting to the traditionalists. How do you guys expect them to show you respect as kilt wearers, when you attack them as well. Must get dizzy running in circles.

As for the Clan MacKenzie, great post Machanson. Very well thought out and well written. It was a pleasure to read such a post. As a proud member of the Clan MacKenzie (mother's side) I welcome you to the forum.

Now I have not changed my last name to MacKenzie or one of it's sept yet I have been welcomed into the clan society. I think we have to remember that these "rules" on the website are not set in stone, but where instead written by a person. Who knows these may be quite old and out dated. So instead of attacking a clan society that none of you know about, and have likely not researched or contacted about the issues brought up in this thread, let's let the man defend his clan and welcome him to the board.

[Blu (Ontario)]

Spoken like true gentleman as usual, Colin. This thread is a good education covering just about all sides of the issue and a good reference. I was quite surprised to see it jump to life again!

[Robin]

Welcome MacHanson!

[pdcorlis]

Let me also welcome Dr. MacKenzie-Hanson as a new member!

Respetfully, I think that what is at the heart of this long and informative thread is a disagreement about the existence of any document titled or acting as "The Rules of the Scottish Clan System" and its authority to speak for all scottish clans regarding membership and/or more specifically, the wearing of clan tartans. If I've got this right, then the matter should be easy enough to clear-up.

If Dr. MacKenzie-Hanson or anyone else could provide a complete citation of the source of these rules (MPA or APA style or at least including title, author, page number, date, publisher or document location) it will be case closed and we would all be better informed.

I intend no disrespect here to Dr. MacKenzie-Hanson but as he suggests that the rules for for wearing the Mackenzie clan tartan are in fact the rules for all clans, perhaps he could easily provide the source citation.

My apologies if I seem to be stirring the pot here but as an educator, any claimed sources simply need to be attributed.

[Sherry]

Yeah, what Phil said.

Honestly, the clan system was broken a long time ago, Daz insulted no one, & to waste time being insulted over this issue is just plain silly.

Enjoy the clan society for the social fun that it is, but don't use it as a reason for exclusivity & snobbishness. In the clans in which I have membership (Clans Gunn, Cunningham & Davidson) inclusivity is the byword, & I've never met nicer groups of people. They enjoy, & have pride in, all things Scottish: the tartan, the history (both national & clan) [In fact, I believe studying Scottish history puts these things into real perspective.], whisky, highland coos, etc.; but they do not try to force anyone to abide by some unenforceable rules.

It's just not worth getting worked up over it. You can have a balance of clan & Scottish ancestory pride without losing touch with the reality that no one is going to arrest & haul off to jail anyone who wears a tartan without a so-called "right."

In short, don't be a snob!