Military Origin of ‘True Scotsman’ Tradition

[neloon]

Incidentally, the term "true Scotsman" came to be used as a kind of joke because the answer is always "Yes". You are either a "true" Scotsman or a "trews" Scotsman.

Alan

[Regimental]

My father was in the Irish Guards during WW2. He told us kilts were not worn for that period but he was posted to Buckingham Palace (which he called ‘Buck House’) - I don’t know how often. He said that there was a mirror set into the ‘Guard Room’ floor.

Interesting, though again WW2-era, and I don’t suppose we can know exactly what the mirror was for without some testimony from kilted soldiers themselves (albeit I’m struggling to think of many other purposes!

Incidentally, the term "true Scotsman" came to be used as a kind of joke because the answer is always "Yes". You are either a "true" Scotsman or a "trews" Scotsman.

I’ve always joked with my trews-wearing friend any time we are at an event and he was substituting trews for a kilt that I was the true Scotsman, and he was just the trews Scotsman

[Nemuragh]

Interesting, though again WW2-era, and I don’t suppose we can know exactly what the mirror was for without some testimony from kilted soldiers themselves (albeit I’m struggling to think of many other purposes!

My recollection is that he said the mirror was at the door (out onto the parade ground?). He definitely thought it was to check that nothing was being worn. However, he might have been mistaken since it doesn’t seem to have been in use; it might have been the opposite.

[Bruce Scott]

The Imperial War Museum has in its collections a pair of sealed pattern Highlander's drawers with the following description:

"A pair of sealed pattern drawers (shorts), British Army Highlanders, dated 1918, made from white fabric with metal buttons at the front, there is a small paper label fixed to the obverse printed as follows ROYAL ARMY CLOTHING FACTORY OCT 1918 DRS. SHORTS HIGHDR."

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30116136


Unfortunately a photograph is not available.

[neloon]

The official specification was "RACD Pattern 8538/1915, “Drawers, short, Highlanders"
A pattern for officers' tartan undertrews can be found in "The Great War: Styles & Patterns of the 1910s" but the book is rare and would bankrupt you!

Alan

[Troglodyte]

The ant-gas bloomers were a War Office invention in the late 1930s but , unsurprisingly(!), they were never issued. In any case the kilt on active service disappeared early in WW2.

"Highlanders of the 18th century are well-documented as sporting no underwear " Well documented where? It must be remembered that the kilt is really an OVERgarment therefore the word "underwear" really does not go with kilt wearing. Highlanders, unless they were very poor, continued to wear the short trews that they had worn before the arrival of the feileadh around 1580.

Alan

Writing in 1726-27, Burt gives examples. One such is concerns a lady of position travelling with a kilted guide who led the way a little further up the slope. Professing to be terrified by the dangers of the terrain, she had to keep her eyes fixed on the guide whose kilt was constantly lifted by the up-draught of the breeze. Burt's amusement is obvious.

Other writers' accounts mention how the Highlanders are naked apart from a loose covering, or that the indecency of their clothing is plain to see.

Litterally 'they wear no underwear' will not be found, but euphamisms are used - such as 'not enough to cover their embarrassment' or not enough 'to conceal what should be hidden.'

The short, close-fitting trews are a recorded and illustrated item of ancient Irish clothing, but I have never come across them being noted in the Highlands. The earliest mention I have found refers to the Highlanders in 'hose' or the legs being covered in tight, striped or parti-coloured cloth. The contemporary sources seem to note the differences, rather than the similarities, between Irish and Highland dress, as if the Irish mode is better known.

My source (a Seaforth) for the silk bloomers as gas-defences in the trenches is no longer living (so I can no longer verify), but thier use may well have been unofficial. As most of the issued kit did less than the men knew they needed, improvisation ran wild - perhaps the 30s idea was based on past experience, but was abandoned as impractical, and better materials had become available anyway.

Whether written military standing orders governing the wear of undergarments with the kilt exist or not, I have been unable to verify with accuracy. But the same is true today. I have heard of guard duty being performed with ladies' tights being worn under the uniform, as they are said to provide better insulation against the cold, but I am willing to bet there is noting written to this effect.

One of my sources said they were 'always' covered when 'South of the Border' - no doubt the womenfolk of England found it impossible to contain their curiosity and could not be trusted..! Nothing new there, then...

[neloon]

I think most people find accounts by English tourists like Burt to be very dubious attempts to confirm the savagery of the Highlands.

Bishop Leslie, a very reputable source writing in 1578, tells us that Highlanders wore "foemoralia simplicissima, pudori quam frigori aut pompae aptiora" = "very simple shorts, for decency rather than against the cold or for ostentation". At about the same time, Lucas de Heere painted what seems to be a very accurate picture of a "Savage Scotsman" - possibly a mercenary in one of the many European wars.
https://www.englandcast.com/wp-conte...sman.jpeg.jpeg
Shortly afterwards, the feileadh was removed from the shoulders and belted around the waist. There is no reason to suppose that the shorts/trews were abandoned.

Alan

[Ninehostages]

I'm a Navy Veteran. The only practical garment for us were "trews"

Sorry.

[kilted redleg]

I think now a days what is worn under the kilt is a matter of personal choice due in part to the influx of women into the military. For example before the pandemic hit Megan Beveridge was the P/M of the Royal Artillery pipe band; she became the first woman in the history of the British army to earn a P/M certificate from the Army School of Piping and Highland Drumming. She also has the distinction of being the lone piper at the Edinburgh Tattoo. There is also a female captain [probably a major now] in the Black Watch, I don't think either of these ladies ask for "proof" when the men fall out kilted. Several years ago a young kilted solider passed out from the heat at I believe a birthday celebration for her majesty the Queen, a gust of wind blew revealing the iconic military boxer shorts. So much for tradition!

[Regimental]

The current / recent soldiers and officers I’ve spoken to definitely say there is no formal ruling or enforcement these days – it’s all down to personal preference, albeit with a big dose of ‘tradition’ (even though as this thread demonstrates, that tradition is, at the very least, a lot more nuanced and complex than might be imagined) and plenty of peer pressure / esprit de corps at play. Officer definitely seem to gently encourage it in a lot of cases, but certainly wouldn’t go about sticking mirrors under kilts, or similar these days (You can imagine the scandal if they did!)

Amongst Scotsmen in the regiment, the sense I got was that the great majority do go ‘regimental’, perhaps 80-90%. Amongst non-Scots, probably quite a bit lower, though still relatively high. There didn’t seem to be any expectation amongst female soldiers, interestingly – it seems to be mostly/almost entirely a male thing.

I recall there was a survey done by a polling company a few years ago which suggested the civilian ‘True Scotsman’ figure amongst military-age men was around 40%, so it still seems to be quite a bit higher in the military than elsewhere (perhaps befitting a tradition which, at least in modern incarnation, seems to have a military origin).

Edit:

Link to the data table for the above mentioned poll for those interested:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...s_160915_W.pdf

It’s an intriguing read, though very frustrating that it doesn’t ask more questions while on the topic – I suspect there is almost certainly a huge difference between those owning a kilt and those renting, but it doesn’t ask about that.