Rethinking Irish Kilts (and a previously unseen vintage pic!)

[CMcG]

Thanks for the replies, folks.

@denmcdough, you're right that kilts are rarely seen in Ireland. Nonetheless, many Irish pipers in Ireland still wear kilts, although I think that since Riverdance the kilt has fallen out of favour with dancers. We have a few Irish members on board here who wear the kilt in Ireland and there is a small Ireland-based Irish Kilt Society/Club. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the kilt is more popular in the North, which may have something to do with a stronger Scottish influence in that area i.e., Dal Riata, Galloglasses, Ulster Scots, etc. All in all, many more Irish abroad wear the kilt, but then again people have long been The Emerald Island's greatest export

@macwilkin, I don't know too much else about Cormac O'Cadhlaigh, except that he was a professor, fluent Gaelic speaker, and a snappy dresser My buddy has a typed manuscript of his great-grandfather's autobiography, which certainly contains much more information. Unfortunately, editing and publishing that is on the backburner for him.

[Jock Scot]

I think the green relates to the Emerald Isle which, according to Wiki is the poetic name for Ireland due to its green countryside, first referred to in print by William Drennan in his poem "When Erin first rose".

I'm reminded of arriving in Belfast as a young Tom on an LSL (Jock you'll know what that means) and being lined up on deck by the Pl Sgt who, gesturing towards Divis Mountain (a misnomer if ever there was one) said in true military parlance "points to note: Ireland is not green".

PTI's! At one time, when I started, the bane of my life! With the Pl, one of the happiest times of my life! l have always admired the St. Patrick's blue plumes of the Irish Guards.

Back to topic, not having an Irish connection or a religious one, and whilst understanding the Emerald Isle connection to green, but St. Patrick's day is not "Ireland Day" although that is where we now seem to be these days, I still think, if it occurs to me, of blue on the day.

You all may be interested that we have just had an eclipse (about 95%) of the sun, a wonderful sight, particularly as we have had 10/10 cloud cover! A gap appeared just at the right time!

[CMcG]

...

Back to topic, not having an Irish connection or a religious one, and whilst understanding the Emerald Isle connection to green, but St. Patrick's day is not "Ireland Day" although that is where we now seem to be these days, I still think, if it occurs to me, of blue on the day.

...

I believe St. Patrick's Day is actually the National Day of Ireland—both North and South—and so it is "Ireland Day" without being called that. The association between the patron saint and the Island is a sort synecdoche, where the man stands in for the nations on that day. Green is the national colour and thus acts metonymically to represent St. Pat.

I also think of that very particular Saint Patrick blue on the day. St. Pat does have his own association with green, however, which is from the myth of him using a shamrock to explain the Holy Trinity. A blue clover would be a little odd:

[OC Richard]

The whole St Patrick's Day thing in the USA makes for a strange and interesting story.

The first St Patrick's Day Parade anywhere, probably, was the one in New York City in 1762, when the general commanding the British garrison allowed the Irish soldiers to parade through the town.

Four years later:

This day being St. Patrick's, titular Saint of Ireland, it was by day-light, extremely well ushered in with Drums, and Fifes, &c. before the doors of many gentlemen of that nation, playing -- Patrick's Day in the Morning early! -- which being somewhat unusual, roused many lazy bodies, some to wear the Shamrock, and others to go to work.

New York Gazette, 17 March 1766

The Irish of that day were already a prominent element of New York life; but they were Presbyterians, not Catholics. They celebrated Saint Patrick's day with enthusiasm, and their toasts to Ireland and America, together with their scarcely veiled hostility to England, would not be out of place on similar occasions at present...

Theodore Roosevelt

Also interesting that Glasgow Celtic and the Boston Celtics both pronounce the c as "s" and both use a four-leaf clover rather than a shamrock for their symbol.

[macwilkin]

Colin,

The earliest depictions of Patrick show him in blue vestments, not green. Green, as associated with Ireland, comes from the Irish Nationalist movement in the 18th century, which adopted the colour as their symbol. Blue was also associated with the Order of St. Patrick, which was the Irish equivalent of the Order of the Thistle or the Order of the Garter.

Smithsonian magazine's article does a decent job explaining "St. Patrick's Blue":

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-c...954572/?no-ist

T.

[O'Callaghan]

Not a historian, but AFAIK the green comes from the rebellion of 1798, which my arithmetic says was the 18th century (although only just) and not quite the 19th. Green cockades for the rebels to wear in their hats were supplied by the French, and when those ran out, they wore shamrocks, or so the story goes. Shamrocks are green too, and allegedly used by St. Patrick to teach the trinity. On St. Patrick's Day, being Ireland's patron saint's day, the colour green is nowadays worn as a symbol of nationalism, although my grandfather always wore a shamrock on St. Patrick's day, as was the practice in those days.

As for kilts, they were certainly worn by the Gaelic League in their heyday, back in the 19th century. Some might say they are not native to Ireland, but we are no longer in the same century, or even the one after that one. By now I think they are at least historical, even if no longer worn by today's Irish (except for pipers). I also believe that those who originally promoted them in Ireland were fully aware that the saffron leine was not a kilt, but believed a kilt was a better compliment to the gents' clothing of the day. If some were mistaken about what the old pictures showed, they came along much later.

[Tenmiles]

I believe St. Patrick's Day is actually the National Day of Ireland—both North and South—and so it is "Ireland Day" without being called that. The association between the patron saint and the Island is a sort synecdoche, where the man stands in for the nations on that day. Green is the national colour and thus acts metonymically to represent St. Pat.

I also think of that very particular Saint Patrick blue on the day. St. Pat does have his own association with green, however, which is from the myth of him using a shamrock to explain the Holy Trinity. A blue clover would be a little odd:

Perhaps totally off-topic, but interesting to me nonetheless, is how the distinction between "green" and "blue" has, in a number of cultures and languages (Japanese comes first to mind), been rather vague (even sharing words, or having the name of one deriving from the other), in spite of how "clearly different" the two colours seem to our eyes.
I seem to remember reading an recent article of dubious veracity which even went as far as to suggest that our perception of colour, as humans, has developed over time to become finer, allowing for such a distinction where, in the terms of our much earlier ancestors, such a distinction may not have been evident.

[CMcG]

Perhaps totally off-topic, but interesting to me nonetheless, is how the distinction between "green" and "blue" has, in a number of cultures and languages (Japanese comes first to mind), been rather vague (even sharing words, or having the name of one deriving from the other), in spite of how "clearly different" the two colours seem to our eyes.
I seem to remember reading an recent article of dubious veracity which even went as far as to suggest that our perception of colour, as humans, has developed over time to become finer, allowing for such a distinction where, in the terms of our much earlier ancestors, such a distinction may not have been evident.

I've heard that too. In Chinese, there is a character (青, Cantonese: chìng) that means not only blue and green, but also black There are other words that are used for only green or blue, it's interesting that chìng can encompass three colours!

[OC Richard]

Languages vary tremendously. I've read that many only have two words for colours- more or less corresponding to white and black, and many others add red. There was an article I read online recently saying that few ancient languages had a word corresponding to "blue" and would describe the sea and sky as being the colour of wine or blood.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...-guy-deutscher

Did you see this documentary? It's very interesting and suggests that when we learn to speak the particular language we learn changes how we perceive colour

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=30670#.VQ4Ba2Z0yUk

A glance in an Irish dictionary reveals a colour perception rather different from that of English

glas 1. green 2. grey, grey-blue (of eyes), lustrous bright steely (of metal), dismal raw chilly (of weather) 3. blue (literature)

(Grey horses and sheep are described as glas.)

gorm 1. blue, bluish-green (of grass), dark-blue, livid, purple 2. Negro 3. noble, illustrious (literature)

[Cyd]

You are absolutely right CMcG! The Scottish tradition is a wonderful idea and has been a catalyst to reviving history, national pride and exploring personal genealogy. There is no reason a good idea can not be adopted by other societies and I personally think it would be wonderful if people started designing more tartans for non-Gaelic surnames. Everyone should have a tartan to call their own.