Saltire Sporran

[Pittsburgh Kilts]

First, a BIG apology to Todd for plagiarizing his work! (I am SO busted!) I was in a hurry to get the page up there, and intended to go back and rewrite that section in my own words, while still giving credit to the original source. But since I'm busted anyhow--can I have permission to leave it there, Todd?

Thanks to ya'll for the nice words about the sporran. Yes, I'd be willing to try a matching kilt. (Actually someone asked about that idea first, which led me to the sporran idea, which led here....)

I personally think the kilt with the saltire in the pleats in one of THE COOLEST things I've ever seen. Props to that company! I'm a little bummed to see their sporran, though--I thought I had something truly original here. Oh well!

[macwilkin]

First, a BIG apology to Todd for plagiarizing his work! (I am SO busted!) I was in a hurry to get the page up there, and intended to go back and rewrite that section in my own words, while still giving credit to the original source. But since I'm busted anyhow--can I have permission to leave it there, Todd?

No worries, Jeff -- if it's for educational purposes, ie to educate folks about the Saltire, then I have no problems with it. And you did give credit to the source via the URL.

You have my permission, for what that's worth! :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[Jewddha]

Quite creative, I also like the new site layout, see you raised the prices though ;)

[Colin]

Quite creative, I also like the new site layout, see you raised the prices though ;)

I'll second that, your site looks great. Nice changes to the format.

[cavscout]

The sporran looks great. I feel a sporran is a better place to display the flag of Scotland than someone's backside.

My first impression of the pleated flag was "Is this improper?" because when the person sits... What I mean is, It upsets me to see the American flag or the Marine Corps flag displayed in a poor manner. I'd be pretty hacked to see someone with an Eagle, Globe and Anchor on the butt of their boxers. Perhaps I'm a bit overly sensitive to this. However I can appreciate the craftsmanship of pleating that completes an image like that.

[Archangel]

The sporran looks great. I feel a sporran is a better place to display the flag of Scotland than someone's backside.

My first impression of the pleated flag was "Is this improper?" because when the person sits... What I mean is, It upsets me to see the American flag or the Marine Corps flag displayed in a poor manner. I'd be pretty hacked to see someone with an Eagle, Globe and Anchor on the butt of their boxers. Perhaps I'm a bit overly sensitive to this. However I can appreciate the craftsmanship of pleating that completes an image like that.

I would measure it against the impact of the walk away view, way cool. Also, in terms of flag etiquette, you're probably safe. It's not the flag of Scotland. While parliament slept, the proudly celtic nation(?) of Tenerife (where?) officially registered the saltire as its own. And, while parliament sleeps on, Scotland has no official flag or anthem yet.

[macwilkin]

From the Heraldry Society of Scotland's article, "Flying Heraldry":

The Scottish Saltire, blue with its white diagonal cross, is the flag of St Andrew, patron saint of Scotland. It is the correct flag for Scots or Scottish corporate bodies to fly to demonstrate their loyalty and nationality.

-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/flyingherald.html

Cheers,

Todd

[Mike1]

It's not the flag of Scotland.

From Absolute Astronomy's encyclopedia -

Flag of Scotland
[Categories: Flags of the United Kingdom, Scottish culture, National flags]

The national flag of Scotland features a white saltire, a Crux decussata (X-shaped cross) representing the cross of the Christian martyr Saint Andrew (Scotland's patron saint) on a blue field. It is often known as Saint Andrew's Cross. In heraldic language, it may be blazoned Azure, a saltire argent.

The Scottish flag is one of the oldest flags in the world, dating back to the 9th century. Legend has it that in c832AD King Hungus (or Angus) led the Picts and Scots in battle against the Angles under Athelstan. Hungus and his men were surrounded and he prayed for deliverance. During the night Saint Andrew, who was martyred on a diagonal cross, appeared to Hungus and assured him of victory. On the morrow a white saltire against the background of a blue sky appeared to both sides. The Picts and Scots were heartened by this but the Angles took fright and were defeated. The saltire has been the Scottish flag ever since.

There is no official definition of the exact shade of blue which should be used as the field. At various times colours as light as sky blue or as dark as dark navy have been used (a selection apparently motivated by which colour of blue dye was cheapest at the time), although recent versions have largely converged on the unofficial recommendation of Pantone 300. In 2003 a committee of the Scottish Parliament urged the Scottish Executive to adopt this colour as a voluntary standard (PE512). It is important that the blue is of a lighter shade than that of the Union Flag. The flag proportion is not fixed but is generally taken as 5:3 or 3:2, the former being preferred. The cross should have a width of 1/5 of the height of the flag.

The Scottish saltire and field is one of the components of the Union Flag. A reversed version (blue saltire on a white field) is to be found in the naval jack of Russia used before and after the Soviet Union St Andrew is also a patron saint of Russia. Additionally the blue saltire on white design is featured on the Coat of Arms of Nova Scotia, Canada and its flag, but the blue used for Nova Scotia is generally a light blue.

NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only.

To add to what Todd has already posted, the Cross of St. Andrew is, most certainly, the national flag of Scotland.

Common Scots are to fly the Cross of St. Andrew and are not permitted to fly the Union flag. That flag is only to be flown by government offices and for certain military uses, including being flown on the foretop of Royal Naval vessels (which is the only time the Union flag is identified as a Union Jack). For all other uses, each country should fly its own flag - the Crosses of St. Andrew, St. George, St. Patrick and of Cornwall, as well as the dragon of Wales.

Archangel, if it's not the national flag of Scotland, then why all the row over it being removed from Gleneagles for the duration of G8, so the Union flag can take its place?

I quote Alex Salmond, leader of the Scottish National Party -

"The prime minister and first minister have been proclaiming how the G8 summit coming to Scotland was an opportunity to showcase the country. But the Foreign Office isn’t even prepared to see the Scottish national flag flying in a prominent place. It typifies the attitude of the London establishment of subordinating Scottish identity at every opportunity.” [emphasis mine]

[bubba]

"The prime minister and first minister have been proclaiming how the G8 summit coming to Scotland was an opportunity to showcase the country. But the Foreign Office isn’t even prepared to see the Scottish national flag flying in a prominent place. It typifies the attitude of the London establishment of subordinating Scottish identity at every opportunity.” [emphasis mine]

To hell with the Foreign Office. If they want the Union flag flown it can fly UNDER the Saltire. Keep the Saltire flying at Gleneagles.

[Archangel]

sorry, guys, I'm talking about the difference between a "given" and a legal status. and it's personal to me as the land of my birth. There is no international flag of Scotland, that would be the Union Jack. The Rampant is connected to the crown within the UK and the Saltire exists. There is generally an issue over it at the commonwealth games.
I have many shirts and flags with this but I know it is only a symbol.
This was part of the debate in last year Scottish parliament (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This...-Questions/675) but it was glossed over since it is a given. Understand that if there is an official reason for Tenerife to be someplace, you will see the Cross of St. Andrew. Scotland would have to use the Union Jack. These are the kinds of priority issues which are causing dissatisfaction with this new parliament.

I include this satirical reference to it with the warning that this site uses very strong language, etc, but is a good Scotland source: http://www.firstfoot.com/renfrew/pre.../andycross.htm