"ENTITLEMENTS"

**Andrew Breecher** · 27th June 05, 10:48 AM

I think that respect to the traditions of kilts changes depending on what I'm wearing it for.

I wear the kilt every day, and in the summer I wear it with sandals and a tank top - hey it's pretty comfortable in the heat to wear only two items of clothing! In cooler weather I'll wear kilt hose and flashes, but with sneakers (trainers). When I'm hiking, I don't wear kilt hose, and I'll even wipe the sweat off my face with my kilt. Hey, it's what I wear - it's a kilt, not a flag, I can do what I please.

But when I dress up with a shirt and tie, and a jacket, and shiny black shoes I treat the kilt differently. In fact, it's exactly the same kilt (well, one of them) that I wear every other day, but with a jacket it becomes more formal. When I dress up I tend to wear my Irish county tartan kilt rather than my other tartans, not because it's any nicer, but rather because I have a family connection to that tartan.

Andrew.

**Mike1** · 27th June 05, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Alan H

I recently joined Clan MacNaughton.

You know, at the risk of seeming to pick fly "stuff" out of pepper, I am going to insert a bit of a comment here.

Methinks that you mean to say that you recently joined the Clan MacNaughton SOCIETY.

Yeah, it's a minor point, but think about it for a moment.

If you are a MacNaughton, you are a MacNaughton. There's no need to pay dues, no membership cards, etc. If you are a family member, then you are a family member. Do any of us actually charge our family members to be a part of our family and then send them quarterly newsletters?

And, if you are a MacNaughton, then what is to be gained by paying dues?

Which is not to say that the clan societies should not exist, because they do bring families together and help out with family lineage research studies.

I am a member of a clan society for just these very reasons. But the blood that runs through my veins has always been there, dues card or no, OK?

I have blood ties to two families from the Cowal peninsula, one from near Loch Lomond and one from Fife. I am descended from these families. Am I any more a "family member" if I pay dues to the clan societies that bear their names? Or any less?

When I joined the clan, I read through the constitution and by-laws.

How many families have a constitution or by-laws? See my point?

Now, honestly, what's the difference between that and some guy from who-knows-where, coming north over the Cheviot Hills, managing to get through the Borders alive, and arriving on the shore of Lock Fyne in 1640? He marries a MacNaughton woman, swears allegiance to the MacNaughtons, and ta-daaa, the guy is a MacNaughton.

You mean Loch Fyne?

Quite a difference. At one point, afore so many were burned out of their homes and driven off the land to make way for the great, white sheep, a man could marry into a family and both contribute to and benefit from its well-being. And no dues cards present at the dinner table, eh? ;)

**highlander_Daz** · 27th June 05, 01:12 PM

Mike I know in the past we've disagreed on several subjects but this time you are "right on the Money" 100%

**Dreadbelly** · 27th June 05, 01:22 PM

I am a Douglas and I pay nothing. If somebody asked me for dues on being a Douglas...

Well frankly I would respond in typical and true Douglas fashion. I would brain them for being a ninny.

**Alan H** · 27th June 05, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mike1

You know, at the risk of seeming to pick fly "stuff" out of pepper, I am going to insert a bit of a comment here.

Methinks that you mean to say that you recently joined the Clan MacNaughton SOCIETY.

Mike, you're correct. I did join the Society, and you're also right in that there's a difference between the CLAN and the clan SOCIETY..

Here's the thing, though. The Clan no longer exists as an organization. About two years ago when the Clan membership was down to less than 40 people, the organizers (the Chief isn't very involved) decided to call it quits and dissolved the Clan. So by sort-of-default, the Clan Society is now the closest thing you can get to being amember of Clan MacNaughton.

All of which is, as you correctly point out, only peripherally related to what your genetic inheritance is.

Still and all, pretty much all of us are mutts. Even folks who live in Scotland right now are mostly mutts, and we've been mutts for hundreds of years. Campbells marry MacNaughtons, whose kids marry folks from England and then the Vikings raid and rape everybody and then the Normans conquer and before that the Romans brought in a couple of thousand hostages from the Middle East and it just goes on and on. so while saying "I'm a MacNaughton" ought to mean something...and it DOES mean something, I'm not precisely clear on what it does, in fact, actually mean.

Meanwhile, I've learned a bunch of MacNaughton history, can point to one long-ago McKnight ancestor, can point to another ancestor from the Border Family named Hall, and I figure that's as good as anybody should need. It's certainly good enough for me.

**macwilkin** · 27th June 05, 01:35 PM

I am a Douglas and I pay nothing. If somebody asked me for dues on being a Douglas...

Well frankly I would respond in typical and true Douglas fashion. I would brain them for being a ninny.

Whilst I agree with Mike's sentiments in general, let me just respond to the comment above that there are quite a few clan societies that do a lot of good work with those dues. Besides the aforementioned genealogical research (some of those societies have tons of material gathered in a central location, which allows a large number of folks to share years worth of research), dues also help with upkeep of clan heritage centers, which may be located in a historic church, castle, etc., scholarships, promoton of Scottish heritage & culture, and even charitable activities, as well as social events, newsletters, etc. Many clan societies have the "blessing" of the chief, and the chief & his/her family are active members and support the society's efforts, with some chiefs even travelling across the pond to events like annual general meetings at highland games, etc.

And we need to remember that the first clan society, the Clan Buchanan Society, was started in the early 19th century as a charitable organisation to assist "members" in time of need.

And in general, dues help keep societies alive. As an officer & Past President of our local Scottish Society, as well as an officer in my clan society, I can personally attest that they keep the "the lights on", so to speak.

So, bottom line: whilst you don't need to be a member of the Clan Society to be a (insert Clan name here), one great way to show your support and appreciation for your heritage is to be a member and support the society. It's just another way to "show the colours".

Cheers,

Todd

**Dreadbelly** · 27th June 05, 01:41 PM

I wouldn't mind "donating" to the Douglas cause.

But being required to pay dues to be recognised as a Douglas?

I think not!

We respond to tyranny with extreme action. And holding a name for ransom is just plain wrong.

Make no mistake though. I would have no bones about a donation here and there. There are many noble causes that need support.

**macwilkin** · 27th June 05, 01:48 PM

I wouldn't mind "donating" to the Douglas cause.

But being required to pay dues to be recognised as a Douglas?

I think not!

We respond to tyranny with extreme action. And holding a name for ransom is just plain wrong.

Make no mistake though. I would have no bones about a donation here and there. There are many noble causes that need support.

As a member of a clan society, I'm a little bothered to the accusation that I am holding a surname for "ransom" -- quite on the contrary -- my work with my clan society is to (hopefully) keep the name of the history of that clan alive, as well as to honour the accomplishments of my ancestors and all the others who went before me. Is every person with that surname going to be a member? No. Not everyone is a "joiner", and that's fine. But let those of us who want to be members be members, and not make negative implications that we are "tyrannical" or holding a name "hostage". I don't think a friend of mine who is a Douglas & the local rep for the society would appreciate that either.

Not every person with an ancestor in the Civil War is a member of the Sons of Union or Confederate Veterans either, but that doesn't mean the organization is holding honouring veterans "hostage".

There's nothing "tyrannical" about that at all.

T.

**Dreadbelly** · 27th June 05, 01:53 PM

I think we misunderstood each other T.

I see your point a little better.

My point is we should have to pay dues to be part of a clan. We are what we are. There are some clan societies out there were you must pay fees to be recognised as a member of clan "X" and this bothers me a great deal.

You are obviously in it for a more noble cause... While others are in it for a quick buck.

**Colin** · 27th June 05, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dreadbelly

My point is we should have to pay dues to be part of a clan. We are what we are. There are some clan societies out there were you must pay fees to be recognised as a member of clan "X" and this bothers me a great deal.

And which one's would those be? I have never seen any clan societies that say you must be a member of the society to be considered part of the clan. Clans and Clan Societies are different creatures. Clan Societies are there to honour the Clan not to take it over.