Economic theory

[RockyR]

Rocky, she may have lasted longer with you than she would have with me.
I do not take you comments as a rant, rather as a response based on your experience.
All of you touched on one of my basis for the discussion in the first place. Cost of labor. I cannot sew a kilt for what I can buy one for, even if I only pay myself $20 an hour. So, why do so many want to? The perception that a new kilt is too expensive.
Ugly, I beg to differ. The market is growing exponentially. Both on the custom side and on the off shore side, not to mention the emergance of the modern kilt.
I have on my tank today becasue of a dinner engagement tonight. I'm a buyer, so you know I'm not complaining, just wondering. Again, my understanding would indicate that with growing demand, and a fairly high price for a decent kilt, more competition would come in and prices would drop.
David

Hey David... glad that didn't come across as TOO angry!

I have a slightly different view on it from this side of the table. I think Ugly is right... HOPEFULLY, Kilts will take off as an everyday man's garment. However, I'm realistic and don't see that in the IMMEDIATE future. In order for the cost to come down substantially, you'd have to outsource the labor. In order to make a good profit marjin (enough where you can retail a kilt below $50) on outsourced labor, you'd have to make 200 to 300 kilts at a time, in 1 size and the design has to be VERY SIMPLE (skirtlike). Commercial Sewing contractors make money on repitition and making the EXACT same thing several hundred times. In order to be ABLE to order 200 kilts in a 4 or 5 sizes (we're up to 800 to 1000 kilts... and if you want different colors/tartans, forget it), there has to be a DEMAND for them to be bought in the general public. I don't see THAT high of a demand for "skirtlike kilts" in the immediate future.

You have to ask yourself... do you WANT a kilt that was mass produced, with poor quality material, less than stellar labor, that looks like a skirt, whose makers have little to no interest in the tradition and that helps to put smaller companies out of business?

I think that if Kelly and I had 150 orders for Casual kilts each month, we could drop the price. Unfortunately, we don't have QUITE that many orders.. yet. ;)

Another thought that has not been brought up yet... the kiltmakers (not companies that buy kilts, then mark them up and re-sell them, but people who actually MAKE them) on this board are all RETAILERS, not wholesalers. Steve, Jeff, Robert, Matt, Barb, Terry and I all make these OURSELVES and BELIEVE me, we aint rich.

Again... sorry to rant. I hope I'm not coming off as harsh... just expressing a STRONG opinion from a kiltmaker POV. Other kiltmakers may see it different.

[Ugly Bear]

Ugly, I beg to differ. The market is growing exponentially. Both on the custom side and on the off shore side, not to mention the emergance of the modern kilt.
I have on my tank today becasue of a dinner engagement tonight. I'm a buyer, so you know I'm not complaining, just wondering. Again, my understanding would indicate that with growing demand, and a fairly high price for a decent kilt, more competition would come in and prices would drop.

The market is growing, maybe even exponentially. But it's growing from a very small base. We're still well outside the mainstream.

And you're right that a higher demand will mean lower prices. Higher demand will mean that more sheep can be bred and shorn for their wool, lowering material cost. Higher demand would mean that kiltmakers could hire more staff, confident that they won't have idle hands, lowering labor costs. Higher demand would mean that kiltmakers could produce more stock, confident that they could eventually sell most of it.

But we're not there yet. I've said before (based on nothing but a hunch) that there will be a big turnaround sometime around 2010-2012, and kilts will then be a viable alternative to trousers for all men. Until then, costs will stay, relatively, high.

Also, higher demand can manifest itself as scarcity. Case in point: I missed calling Rocky & Kelly before their big weekend, and I now have a nice, long wait until I get my next kilt. I'm not complaining, though. Not a bit. Because I know that the alternative is an even longer wait at a higher price. So, yes, the demand is growing. I say it'll reach critical mass in about 5-7 years.

[Ugly Bear]

We had a lady come into our shop and straight up TELL us that she was making kilts for her wedding party. She said she wanted to see how we did it so she could copy our design for 5 kilts because she "didn't want to spend the money on rental or buying them". Needless to say, she wasn't in the shop much longer than that last sentence.

Good for you. You probably kept her entire wedding party from looking like crap. (That's not knocking your design, just making a guess that she was looking to outfit the party as cheaply as possible.) I can picture them on the morning of the wedding, getting their kilts made out of tablecloths and duct tape.

By the way, do you outfit wedding parties? I'd think there'd be a sizable demand for wedding kilts in the $100-250 range. After all, it's a garment that most of them are probably planning on never wearing again, and the alternative is something in the $400-900 range. I'd think you could drum up a lot of business by courting wedding parties.

[RockyR]

Good for you. You probably kept her entire wedding party from looking like crap. (That's not knocking your design, just making a guess that she was looking to outfit the party as cheaply as possible.) I can picture them on the morning of the wedding, getting their kilts made out of tablecloths and duct tape.

Great visual! HAHAHAA

By the way, do you outfit wedding parties? I'd think there'd be a sizable demand for wedding kilts in the $100-250 range. After all, it's a garment that most of them are probably planning on never wearing again, and the alternative is something in the $400-900 range. I'd think you could drum up a lot of business by courting wedding parties.

I CAN make Casuals for weddings, but I tell people that they're really better off look at our Semi Trads. We've done MANY wedding parties in our Semi Trad model (and Premiers for that matter!)

[Ugly Bear]

I CAN make Casuals for weddings, but I tell people that they're really better off look at our Semi Trads. We've done MANY wedding parties in our Semi Trad model (and Premiers for that matter!)

Yeah, I was thinking the Semis would do well there. You should have a web page just for wedding parties. (Hey, they're machine-washable; how many wedding parties can say THAT about their outfits? Imagine, wedding clothes that you can wear pretty much anytime.)

[Freedomlover]

So, is the market still to high due to lack of production? Is the market correct & our expectations are off?
Just random thoughts, I'll give more detail if I am not communicating well.
Thoughts?
Thanks
David

I think that at least part of the problem is the huge number of tartans, many of which are quite limited in demand. What I mean to say is that if all kilts were produced from the same fabric the cost would be less. But that would be the Men's Warehouse approach, and who want's that? And it doesn't help that a large segment of the public does not understand that a 45 degree twill (which all tartan is) is just about as simple to weave as it gets. The fact of different colors in different proportions really doesn't complicate the process to the point of justifying $50 or more a yard. What does (somewhat) justify it is the limited production runs. If there were only 20-30 tartans in demand you can be sure the cost would be considerably less than it is now. Even the commonest tartans ride the price wave of the rarer ones.

Another factor is the pushed notion that 'hand sewn' is worth a huge premium. I think the fact of the matter is that machine sewn is every bit as good, and a lot less expensive. Further, a lot of what is sold as 'hand sewn' is in fact machine sewn, and only hand finished. By way of evidence I offer my McGregor kilt made by a Princes Street tailor years ago. A pick glass examination of the stitching shows that there are 22 stitches per inch, every inch throught the garment, and there is no variation in stitch length. That only happens with machine production. So beware of being sold the snob appeal of 'hand sewn' because that is in most cases (notice that I did not say all cases) not what you are going to get.

[GMan]

Another question to ask and the kiltmakers here could probably answer, is is the market up for kilts because of new people coming to kilts, or kilt wearers going to more kiltmakers?

[RockyR]

Another question to ask and the kiltmakers here could probably answer, is is the market up for kilts because of new people coming to kilts, or kilt wearers going to more kiltmakers?

Both and 1 more...
1. The market is up b/c there are many people coming INTO kilt wearing,
2. there are more kiltmakers, so people want to try other makers AND
3. with Casual kilts being a viable affordable option and with an INCREASINGLY GOOD PRODUCT at the $120 (ish) level, people can afford to have more in their Kollection!

[RockyR]

Another factor is the pushed notion that 'hand sewn' is worth a huge premium. I think the fact of the matter is that machine sewn is every bit as good, and a lot less expensive. Further, a lot of what is sold as 'hand sewn' is in fact machine sewn, and only hand finished. By way of evidence I offer my McGregor kilt made by a Princes Street tailor years ago. A pick glass examination of the stitching shows that there are 22 stitches per inch, every inch throught the garment, and there is no variation in stitch length. That only happens with machine production. So beware of being sold the snob appeal of 'hand sewn' because that is in most cases (notice that I did not say all cases) not what you are going to get.

I ordered 2 kilts (both 8 yard wool) for myself from Edgar and from Strathmore to see what THEIR finished product looked like (and b/c I wanted 2 kilts that I DIDN'T have to make). Both were machine made and hand finished (just like Kelly and I do them). I have spoken to people at both companies. The general consensus is that they are moving more and more to doing all of their kilts this way. It helps to keep costs down and helps CONSISTENCY. Peicing out kilts to an army of elderly Scottish women is great when the demand is low(er). However, with demand rising, you need a CONSISTENTLY good product. The way 1 person makes a kilt and the way another person makes one may be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT even if they're employed by the same company. Bringing them all "in house" and machine made/hand finished is going to help with consistency of finished product.

Opinions will vary on whether this is a GOOD thing or a BAD thing, but either way, it is happening at 2 of the biggest tartan companies in Scotland (not sure what Lochcarron is doing... I have only ordered material from them a couple times). The finished product looks great... it's just not completely done by hand.