Anderson Blood

[gilmore]

So you saying that based on the national trust site, which only goes back to 1881, that the majority of those "common names" associated with clan gunn are in fact not? How can one tell based on information that only goes back to 1881. Clan Gunn is one of the oldest clans in scotland and by the definition of the word "sept" the names you state are "associated" with the Gunn Clan. I believe that those names you refer to are ancestors of a lineage of scandinavian (Viking) decent, regardless of geographic distribution in 1881 (well after Great Britain was in existence). Nelson, Wilson, Johnson, etc. may be common "English" or "Anglo" versions of the original name, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are not in fact of Clan Gunn, Clan Mackay (Gunn Neighbors) or any other northern highland clan. The Sept list gives us variations of names associated with the clan, not necessarily "exclusivity" to that clan. (which is not what I was saying in my original post)
I for one know that my family, which was originally Neilson, emmigrated to the new world around 1740 from Scotland due to english persicution and political strife (most likely the clearances). So any geographic "proof" in 1881 would not apply to my family, or many others either who were geographically distributed long before any "cataloging" of names was in existance. "Lore" as you stated is usually based on some kind of fact and The names Neil, Nell, Nail, Nel, and Nael are common scandinavian names. So whether it be MacNeil, MacKay, Gunn, Neilson, or Nelson, or any others you state, my bet is scandinavian decent. SO you are correct in that unless one can trace their ancestry back 500 years to the exact place and group of people, one really doesn't know, however geographic location in 1881 and 1991 doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Although it may not prove so much in a specific case, it proves quite a bit generally. As I said, the Gunn surname is shown to be most prevalent in Caithness in 1881. If you search for other clan names, you will also find them still at that time mostly in the areas with which they are historically associated.

In other words, If you search for Gunn, Robertson, MacDonald or Campbell on the surname profiler http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/Surnames.aspx you will find them at the very same locations in 1881 that they are historically associated with. Why should Anderson, Johnson, Nelson, Robinson and other surnames be different?

I did not say that Johnson, Nelson, Anderson, Robinson and other common names are ALWAYS not associated with the Gunn clan. I said that these common names, not shown to be in Caithness but in great numbers elsewhere, are more likely than not borne by people whose ancestors were not associated with the clan Gunn, absent further evidence. In other words, if your names is, e.g., Robinson, it is more unlikely than likely that your ancestors had any connection with the Gunn clan.

The idea that all those with names associated with the Gunn clan originated in Scandanavia, went to Caithness and then descended into middle and southern Scotland and then England is not at all probable. In fact, recorded history shows the greater numbers of migration were in the opposite direction. Angles, Saxons and Jutes came from what is now the German coast to Northumbria and the Lowlands, then moved north, as did some Norman families.

These days a man of European, especially British, descent, can indeed often trace his surname back 500 years, in a way. Or at least identify living men who are descended from the same man that one is from that time period.

That these names were more likely than not unassociated with the Gunn clan is supported by the DNA evidence. Take a look at the Gunn surname project: http://worldfamilies.net/surnames/g/gunn/results.html

Then compare the Y chromosome test results with those of men named Anderson: http://www.familytreedna.com/(otcr4f...xed_columns=on

Compare the Gunn results with those of men surnamed Robinson: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....obinsonDNA.htm

And compare them with those named Johnson: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...xed_columns=on

And with the Nelson results: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...px?fixed_colum

There are six identified groups of Gunn descendants, divided between only two haplogroups, R1b1 and I, with 13 out of 16 in R1b1, one in I and 2 undetermined. The Anderson, Robinson, Nelson and Johnson results are all over the place, PROVING a variety of origins of patrilineal lines bearing those surnames. And the vast majority of them are not close matches to the Gunn surname results, showing definitively that though they may be related in the far, far distant paleolithic past (as are we all---think: most recent common ancestor in or BEFORE the last Ice Age), a cursory glance does not show any matches that would indicate a relationship to any Gunns that is very close at all.


Even a rarer surname, the Robson surname project, http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...xed_columns=on
shows no close matches with the Gunn results.

However, interestingly, the Swanson project results http://worldfamilies.net/surnames/s/...n/results.html show one line that matches the Gunns fairly closely if only in the 12 marker tests. Swanson is one of the eight alleged Gunn sept names that appears mostly in Caithness in 1881.

[gilmore]

...I for one know that my family, which was originally Neilson, emmigrated to the new world around 1740 from Scotland due to english persicution and political strife (most likely the clearances). ...

The clearances did not get underway until over 20 years after that date:

"What the landlords thought of as necessary "improvements" but became known as the Clearances are thought to have been begun by Admiral John Ross of Balnagowan Castle in Scotland in 1762, although MacLeod of MacLeod (i.e. the chief of MacLeod) had done some experimental work on Skye in 1732."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_clearances

The Countess of Sutherland did not start removing the Gunn clan families until 1809. See http://www.highlandclearances.info/c...clearances.htm

[sirdaniel1975]

Riverkilt,

Congrads on your families recent research... I know the feeling because last week I just found the name Stewart in my background. Also a very common surname.. It's part of my Glasgow background...

For the some of the best net info on Clan Gunn: www.caithness.org . There are some names that are considered by certain research to be more Traditionally associated with the Clan. The names that are descendants of the "Crowner" George Gunn and his sons and grandsons. Those names are; George, Crowner, James, Robert, William, and Henry. The names that come from St. Magnus and Sweyn Assliefsson (the late Orkney Viking Pirate). The names that come from one of the Earliest or Earliest Chief Torquil Gunn. There were some prominent Alexander Gunns in the clans history as well. I'm unaware of any names that come from Sneakol Gunn. Most of these persons are mentioned in J.D. Cawdor's, History of Caithness. The html version of the book is online at www.caithness.org .

Many of the added names to the sept list comes from variant spellings of names. Supposedly some names have been added because some of the sept names (their families) changes their spellings over time.

I am a member of the Clan Gunn SNA branch and I can tell you that the folks involved are very particular about presenting as accurate information about the clan history and genealogy. In fact, some of the members sought to have a certain person (Nancy McCorkle) change her website, because she was presenting very bad information about the clan.

Riverkilt... good for you....

[gilmore]

Y chromosome markers are passed from father to son, as are surnames.

Take a look at the results of the Gunn surname Y chromosome DNA project. http://worldfamilies.net/surnames/g/gunn/results.html

The overwhelming majority are in the R1b hapolgroup, which developed in the Iberian peninsula during the last Ice Age when northern Europe was covered in vast ice sheets when a group of humans were isolated from others. After the ice receded, the descendants of these people went up the coast of France to the western coast of the British Isles, which were at that time still connected by land to mainland Europe. Their descendants settled in Ireland, and after some centuries their descendants, known as the Scotii, settled in Scotland and gave it their name. In 1500 AD about 2/3 of the men of the Iberian peninsula were in haplogroup R1b. About 3/4 of the men of Scotland were in R1b.

Meanwhile, in the Balkans another isolated group of humans developed the I haplogroup. A third isolated group developed R1a in central Asia. Some of their descendants wound up in Europe. About 1/3 of Scandanavian men were in the I haplogroup, about 1/3 were in the R1a, and about 1/4 were R1b.

Here are maps with pie charts showing the distribution of Y chromosome haplogroups: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

Thirteen of the 16 men in the Gunn surname project are R1b, like the vast majority of Scots whose ancestors came from Ireland. Only one is in haplogroup I, none are in haplogroup R1a, unlike what would be expected if these men were indeed descended patrilineally from Scandanavian Vikings.

Therefore, most Gunn men in this study show DNA evidence that their forefathers were much more likely Irish Scots than Viking.

[Archangel]

Don't worry about it, folks, anytime in the 1700's was a good time to leave Scotland, clearances or not. There was a war in 1715 and building up to war in 1745. Wars don't come out of nothing, so it's safe to say there were tons of political and social issues that prevailed on the Scots.
Yes, some was caused by the English, some was caused by the Scots.

The rest will get into more history than this thread needs. Time to read some books.

And that's all I'll say on that. Why would I want to steal Riverkilt's joy?

[ccga3359]

And that's all I'll say on that. Why would I want to steal Riverkilt's joy?

Ah Ron's just looking for an excuse to get his kilt kount back up in the Hamishsphere.

[Cawdorian]

Thirteen of the 16 men in the Gunn surname project are R1b, like the vast majority of Scots whose ancestors came from Ireland. Only one is in haplogroup I, none are in haplogroup R1a, unlike what would be expected if these men were indeed descended patrilineally from Scandanavian Vikings.

Haplogroup I may indicate Viking or Norse descent, some clan bloodlines are primarily I1a.

How many on the forum have taken Y DNA tests?

[sirdaniel1975]

Haplogroup I may indicate Viking or Norse descent, some clan bloodlines are primarily I1a.

How many on the forum have taken Y DNA tests?

I have not for $ reasons. I know my male ancestors came from Scotland, I'm not concerned about that.

I do find this paragraph interesting:

The lineage of Clan Gunn and its Sept families can not be attributed to a single surname. There was a time when using surnames wasn't a standard practice. Many surnames were based on parental affiliation, occupation, personal appearance, or regional location. As a result, Clan Gunn has many surnames associated with it. Some people with surnames in the Gunn Sept list are descendants of Gunn ancestors. Others are not. This project is for males with surnames listed in the Gunn Sept list. If you are a male with a surname in the sept list and you think you may have a connection to Clan Gunn, you are welcomed to join. If you are a woman who has a male relative with a surname in the sept list and you think they may have a connection to Clan Gunn, you will need them to provide a sample on your behalf of your family. You will be asked to provide a family tree so that your DNA results can be correlated with families related to the Gunns. You are encouraged to test for either 25, 37, or 67 markers since this inmproves the chances of finding matches between members of the project. Please note that have a match with another member doesn't necessarily mean you are related. Markers mutate over time and can present false matches as a result. That is why the family tree must be submitted to correlate against the DNA results. There is no guarantee that you will match anyone with Gunn ancestry or anyone with the same surname as you since surnames were often selected by several methods. This often meant that members of the same family could have different surnames or people from unrelated families could have the same surname.

From: https://www.familytreedna.com/surnam...7&special=true


This thread has gotten of topic, and I realize I've contributed to that. I apologize Riverkilt.

[McMurdo]

Ron
Congratulations to your sister on the find, I hope you add to the kilt collection with the new information.

[Bryan]

...back up in the Hamishsphere.

I like that!