Kilt Go Braugh? A cultural/historical question

[McFarkus]

A very fine and useful thumbnail sketch of the history of that region. I would only correct your definition of CE, it actually stands for "Common Era." That drops the religious reference completely, which is what makes it PC.

I think it may have originally been Christian Era and then changed to Common Era.

[pdcorlis]

Here's another big thank you to the Mods for re-instating this thread and to all the participants so for - the discussion has been a very helpful outline of gaelic/irish/scots roots and connections.

I remember being quite amazed when I first read about Dal Riata and all that followed.

[McFarkus]

If it veers off into political/religious debate, it will be removed. So please give your responses to this thread some extra consideration before submitting them.

When it disappeared last night, I thought I might have done something wrong. I tried to keep the religion and politics very neutral and general, but it's hard to tell the story without some reference to it.

[McFarkus]

Mkfarkus, that was great! concise and a good job of tippy toe through the hazards of religion & politics. Very difficult as both played an integral part in Gaelic/Celt cultural history - and still does for that matter. Thanks to the 'thread gods' who have allowed this to remain on the Forum. We are not worthy!!!.

[auld argonian]

I'm grateful to mfarkus for that great capsule history...and glad that it's being allowed to continue. Religion is tied up in most history...that's just the way it is and it's historical fact and context...no way around it. Discuss it but don't get screwy about it.

But, again, a great summary...I'm going to print it out and give it to my daughter to save in her history book (with your kind permission, please, mfarkus?).

Best

AA

[highlander_Daz]

Your falling in the trap of assuming that Scotland has "one attitude fits all" whereas there tends to different attitudes in different areas, if you take Glasgow as an example, many many people there feel more Irish than Scots, a lot of this is to do with football and "other factors" that I am tring to avoid mentioning, a lot of this is due to the mass Irish migration to Glasgow to work in the shipyards, Billy Connollys ancestors were Irish, I think his grandfather was called Kinnealey and anglicised as Connelly. indeed along the west coast there is considerable "Irish" connections, as there is in Liverpool and Birmingham. along the east coast there is much less of this and you will see football rivalry is still present but much less "intense" as I say the issues between Celtic and Rangers is a factor in the Irish links. as Celtic FC was founded by an Irish priest in 1888 for Irish immigrants, it attracts people who identify with Ireland/ Irish culture.

as you head north, attitudes change somewhat there is less identification with Irish culture and more with traditional Scots culture.

As far as the relationship with England goes, nearly everyone i know has connections with England, either through a relitive that lives/ or was born there or through professional connections, there is a perception abroad that the English hate the Scots and VV however its not really the case, there is in matters of sport a lot of rivalry, however Scots like Andy Murray, David Couthard, the late Colin McRae, have massive support south of the Border, and many English premiership teams are popular in Scotland. indeed a large percentage of people in England and Scotland are unaware of specifics in terms of the union, independance issues, etc.

[McFarkus]

But, again, a great summary...I'm going to print it out and give it to my daughter to save in her history book (with your kind permission, please, mfarkus?). AA

I'm delighted that you found it helpful. Please feel free to use it.

[McFarkus]

Your falling in the trap of assuming that Scotland has "one attitude fits all" whereas there tends to different attitudes in different areas, if you take Glasgow as an example, many many people there feel more Irish than Scots, a lot of this is to do with football and "other factors" that I am tring to avoid mentioning, a lot of this is due to the mass Irish migration to Glasgow to work in the shipyards, Billy Connollys ancestors were Irish, I think his grandfather was called Kinnealey and anglicised as Connelly. indeed along the west coast there is considerable "Irish" connections, as there is in Liverpool and Birmingham. along the east coast there is much less of this and you will see football rivalry is still present but much less "intense" as I say the issues between Celtic and Rangers is a factor in the Irish links. as Celtic FC was founded by an Irish priest in 1888 for Irish immigrants, it attracts people who identify with Ireland/ Irish culture.

I appreciate your addition to the discussion. My brief history kind of tapered off after the Jacobite rebellions which is when my most recent Scots ancestors emigrated to the American Colonies. It helps me to know more about the modern situation in Ireland and Scotland

[Casper]

I guess I would never think of wearing a kilt on March 17. Here, I'd get looked at more oddly than usual if I did, because here there's a distinction between Irish and Scottish. If I wore a kilt on St. Patrick's Day, most people would think I was really mixed up. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't, but just that's what it's like where I am.

Agreed. The uneducated masses would think nothing of it, as still many people think that kilts are also an Irish tradition that was passed to the Scots (no proof of this, however, bagpipes apparently were passed from one to the other). However, you'll get the traditionalists who will think of you as nothing more than a 'Plastic Paddy' with no clue about the culture (always a major beef of the native Irish... the fervor with which North Americans celebrate their holiday).

For me, its slightly different. My family came to Canada from Northern Ireland. Protestant Ulster-Scots from Co. Antrim. Although most of these people would consider themselves either British or simply Irish, there is a growing association in NI that recognizes the unique history of the lowland Scots that settled the Ulster plantations starting in the 1600's. Effectivley, they're originally Scots with 300 years of interbreeding with the Irish. Irish roots, Scottish name... I choose to celebrate both. If people REALLY wanna beef about it, my paternal grandmother was a Davis (sept of Davidson) to boot (I just don't really relate to that side of my family).

For St. Pat's, I don't don my kilt. I do, however, wear my Northern Ireland national football jersey...

As for the holiday itself, it is openly celebrated all over the island, both countries, by both catholic and protestant. Its the only time of the year that you'll see St. Patrick's cross flown (as the Irish don't identify with a flag that was assigned to them by the British, and incorporated into the Union Jack) as it represents the Saint that brought Christianity to the island, not just Catholicism.

..Billy Connollys ancestors were Irish, I think his grandfather was called Kinnealey and anglicised as Connelly.

Same for Sir Sean Connery, if I recall....

[ccga3359]

I am not at all sure that there is enough time left in the world to explain!What I will say is, congratulations to all the people of Ireland and in particular those of Northern Ireland who have embraced peace.Long may it last.

Seconded.