Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[Nanook]

The Prince Charlie coatee dates pretty much from sometime after 1935.

Hard to accept given that we have a coatee in the closet of said style dated from 1921 (Wm Anderson Edinburgh). It has all the design elements but rather than black its a very dark archer green (looks black except in the glare of sunlight) and its buttons are solid sterling silver balls. The colour, I think, is the real give-away to its pedigree (today: Kinloch Anderson) as the case of other formal and dress attire: the military. I have little to believe that the style did not predate the great war.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hard to accept given that we have a coatee in the closet of said style dated from 1921 (Wm Anderson Edinburgh). It has all the design elements but rather than black its a very dark archer green (looks black except in the glare of sunlight) and its buttons are solid sterling silver balls. The colour, I think, is the real give-away to its pedigree (today: Kinloch Anderson) as the case of other formal and dress attire: the military. I have little to believe that the style did not predate the great war.

Thanks for the info! Thus far the earliest dated jacket I've found is either 1936, 1938, or 1939; the label is smudged and the last number is almost undecipherable. That was the reason for my post 1935 statement. Anyhow, I'd be delighted to see a picture of the jacket-- any chance you could post one?

As to the colour-- it was probably black to begin with, not Archer green. Many old black garments have acquired a greenish hue over the years due to a shift in colour as a result of the cleaning processes then in use.

As military uniforms are usually derived from the civilian clothing of the period, and not the other way around, I suspect that the Prince Charlie coatee (what ever it's antiquity) owes more to the cut-down tails coat worn by a gentleman then it does a piece of military clothing.

[Nanook]

Anyhow, I'd be delighted to see a picture of the jacket-- any chance you could post one?

I see if I have a chance.

As to the colour-- it was probably black to begin with, not Archer green. Many old black garments have acquired a greenish hue over the years due to a shift in colour as a result of the cleaning processes then in use.

The iron complexes and dye deterioration tend to be towards green/brown and patchy rather than consistent. Although the garment is pushing 90 the dark green really does appear to be a very dark green (looking also at the silk bits). I need to look at it again.

As military uniforms are usually derived from the civilian clothing of the period, and not the other way around,

Here too I would have to disagree. Most of Savile Row as well as Highland garb specialists such as Wm Anderson were outfitters of military uniforms.

I suspect that the Prince Charlie coatee (what ever it's antiquity) owes more to the cut-down tails coat worn by a gentleman then it does a piece of military clothing.

The cut-down tails coat--- short Spencer Jacket--- became quite the rage among dandies in the late 1790s and was quickly morphed by others with military touches into the Hussar. The tails coat itself only became mainstream decades later in Regency period--- when everyone seemed to want to dress like Beau Brummell. The basis of the look, however, was as much military as civilian and the "civilian" elements more imported from the Continent (French revolutionary style) than home grown. One needs to recall the impact of Napoleon Bonaparte on French fashion in the early 1880s. This also lead to rather spectacular uniforms. The Napoleonic Wars, in turn, exposed these military uniforms to a very wide audience and elements were feed back into civilian design. There were, of course, within Europe much counter-reaction to ""Sans Coulotte", none-the-less, French Revolutionary style also ended the dominance of breeches and brought forth the style of trousers.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Here too I would have to disagree. Most of Savile Row as well as Highland garb specialists such as Wm Anderson were outfitters of military uniforms.

While some Savile Row tailors did (and still do) military tailoring, that work represented only a fraction of their everyday trade-- civilian clothing. In the North, the high end tailors were Jardines (in Edinburgh) and Stewart Christies (also in Edinburgh, and still trading). While both firms did military tailoring (Stewart Christie still does the uniforms for the Royal Company of Archers) their bread and butter trade was, and still is, the civilian market.

The cut-down tails coat--- short Spencer Jacket--- became quite the rage among dandies in the late 1790s and was quickly morphed by others with military touches into the Hussar.

The short "riding coat" existed much earlier than the 1790s

The tails coat itself only became mainstream decades later in Regency period--- when everyone seemed to want to dress like Beau Brummell. The basis of the look, however, was as much military as civilian and the "civilian" elements more imported from the Continent (French revolutionary style) than home grown. One needs to recall the impact of Napoleon Bonaparte on French fashion in the early 1880s.

While George Brummell (1778-1840) did have some influence on men's fashion early in the Regency (1811-1820) it is the scandal which drove him from Court that has caused his name (and extravagances) to survive his downfall. As for "le Petite Empereur" by 1814 Napoleon was tucked up on St. Helena, eating arsenic-laden wall paper, and having very little to do with influencing much of anything, let alone men's fashion.

This also lead to rather spectacular uniforms. The Napoleonic Wars, in turn, exposed these military uniforms to a very wide audience and elements were feed back into civilian design. There were, of course, within Europe much counter-reaction to ""Sans Coulotte", none-the-less, French Revolutionary style also ended the dominance of breeches and brought forth the style of trousers.

There are a number of references above which I feel are inaccurate based on the dates, and events, you've mentioned. Rather than go into a lengthy dissertation on the subject, I'll merely point out that "trousers" in the from of trews, were worn fully half a century before the French Revolution. Of course, in Ireland the wearing of trousers goes back much farther. At the time of the revolution both the tails coat and trousers were regularly seen on well dressed gentlemen in France and elsewhere.

Mens "panatloons" had been getting longer since Tudor times until, by the end of the 17th century, Elizabethean "slops" had reached the knee. Here they paused briefly before continuing their march south, toward the ankles. The "knee britches" remained fashionable for nearly a century until the availability of cheap cloth made trousers more affordable, first among the fashionable and then among the masses...

BUT this is supposed to be about Prince Charlie coatees, not a discussion about the influence of the (defeated) French Army on military fashion, or how "beau" Brummell taught the Nobs to tie a tie... so, let's give this a rest and get back to the topic!

[Ozman1944]

Very dashing: Vikki had good taste.....

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Aside from the undoubted good taste displayed by the Her Majesty, the Late Queen Empress, she also owned several homes. This likeness of Mr. Brown was painted while at Her Majesty's estate at Osborne House on the Isle of Wight.

[Hamish]

................................................ This likeness of Mr. Brown was painted while at Her Majesty's estate at Frogmore on the Isle of Wight.

Alas, not quite true! Frogmore is within Windsor Home Park, close by Windsor Castle in Berkshire, to the west of London. It was there that HM Queen Victoria had built the Royal Mausoleum in which her Consort, Prince Albert, was the first of many members of our Royal Family to be buried.

You are, I fear, confusing Frogmore at Windsor with Osborne House, Her Majesty's favourite residence (and where she died in 1901), on the Isle of Wight. This, for those unfamiliar with our geography, lies centrally some six miles off the south coast of the United Kingdom. It is Osborne House that forms the backdrop to the watercolour of John Brown.

Take care,
Ham.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

You are, I fear, confusing Frogmore at Windsor with Osborne House, Her Majesty's favourite residence (and where she died in 1901), on the Isle of Wight. This, for those unfamiliar with our geography, lies centrally some six miles off the south coast of the United Kingdom. It is Osborne House that forms the backdrop to the watercolour of John Brown.

Take care,
Ham.

You spotted the deliberate mistake and so you win this week's prize!

All the best,
Scott

[Farlander]

Wow, thanks all for the information!

So, clearly Victorian garb the PC is not. I like the idea of a nice tweed kilt jacket with a deerstalker cap. Add a waist coat and perhaps a Victorian cravat and I might have a very nice formal Victorian day ware ensemble indeed! (as for formal evening ware, I still have some research to do)

I will make sure to send pictures of what ever I come up with.

[ccga3359]

Here some pic links to guide you:

Casual.

Dressy.

Formal.

And the all important;

Kilt DO's & DON'T's

Right I've assigned enough homework for the day, I'm off to Bedlam.