Irish Tartans?

[Celtic Cyclist]

I am a proud owner of the Cork. Fabric is from House of Edgar. Stunning!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Todd-- didn't think for a moment that you were "downing" Irish tartans. My point was that because there isn't any central (or local for that matter) "tartan authority" in Ireland that there was no way an Irish tartan could be "official".

Frankly, the real situation is that nobody in Ireland really cares about kilts or tartans, and some (and this includes a few of the Irish Chiefs) are positively "anti" the whole kilt/tartan thing. My attitude is that wearing Irish tartan to proclaim your heritage is a whole lot less offensive than the culturally embarrassing Paddy Whackery you see most of the Irish diaspora trotting around in on St. Patrick's Day.

I don't know... call me a fuddy duddy if you will, but I'd much rather see someone in a kilt than dressed up like the Leprechaun on a box of Lucky Charms.

[macwilkin]

Todd-- didn't think for a moment that you were "downing" Irish tartans. My point was that because there isn't any central (or local for that matter) "tartan authority" in Ireland that there was no way an Irish tartan could be "official".

Frankly, the real situation is that nobody in Ireland really cares about kilts or tartans, and some (and this includes a few of the Irish Chiefs) are positively "anti" the whole kilt/tartan thing. My attitude is that wearing Irish tartan to proclaim your heritage is a whole lot less offensive than the culturally embarrassing Paddy Whackery you see most of the Irish diaspora trotting around in on St. Patrick's Day.

I don't know... call me a fuddy duddy if you will, but I'd much rather see someone in a kilt than dressed up like the Leprechaun on a box of Lucky Charms.

Okay, I see where you're coming from.

And I agree with you 100% about the "paddy whackery" business! I'll have to remember that one. :mrgreen:

T.

[RockyR]

For a tartan to be considered "official" in the STA (Scottish Tartans Authority), it has to have the approval of the "thing" it's claiming to represent since a new rule in 2003 or 2004. There are MANY tartans that were "grandfathered" in b/c they already used the name PRE 2003.

For Instance: Ikleman # 5 AKA "the German National Tartan". When I tried to register my German tartans, I asked if I could call mine "Germany's National" or something like that... I was told that I could NOT name it that unless I had the tartan officially approved by the governing body of Germany (their Government).

If I'm making a tartan for a specific group or organization or company, I have to have that company / group / organization's PERMISSION to do an "official sounding" tartan in their name.

Bottom line... since the new STA "rule" in 2003/4, it's much tougher to name a tartan an "official sounding" name without the approval of the thing you're trying to represent. That's a GOOD thing as it adds (or maintains) the integrity of the tartans on record.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'll reenforce what Todd and Rocky have said. When people speak of a tartan being "official" or not, this has to do with whether or not the tartan has the approval of whatever it claims to represent, not whether it is recorded in this or that index.

The use of the word "authority" in the name of the Scottish Tartans Authority, it meant to suggest that they are an authority on tartans, not an authority over tartans.

In other words, it is up to the MacGregor cheif to tell us what is and is not an official MacGregor clan tartan. The STA exists as an information clearing house, where one can go to discover which tartans named "MacGregor" have the approval of the cheif and which do not.

In the case of a district tartan, the role of the "cheif" is played by whatever the local authority for that district might be. For example, when the Town of Franklin tartan was designed, the Town Board voted to approve it as the official tartan of the town. The Carolina tartan was adopted as the official tartan of the state of North Carolina by an act of our state legislature in 1991 (much the same way as they adopt an official state bird, or state flower).

All Todd is saying about these Irish tartans is that the respective governing bodies for the various counties they are supposed to represent have never given their approval one way or another to these tartans. Strictly speaking, then, these should be considered "fashion" tartans rather than true "district" tartans. One could refer to a tartan named for County Cork, rather than the County Cork tartan.

However, there is also wont and usage to consider. which is to say that if there is a strong tradition of people wearing a given tartan and recognizing it as a truly representative tartan, then it matters not if any governing body has given it approval. An example might be the Aberdeen tartan, which dates back to 1794. To my knowledge, the City of Aberdeen has never officially adopted this tartan. But it's been used as a district tartan for the city for over 200 years! No one would argue that it is not a traditional district tartan.

These Irish County tartans may well be on their way to becoming de facto "official" through wont and usage -- they are certainly quite popular and no one would argue otherwise. However, the fact remains that they are less than 15 years old, and who knows how widely they will be used in another few decades, or one hundred years from now? Are they a popular fad, or are they destined to become a valued addition to the tartan tradition? Only time will tell!

Aye,
Matt

[BoldHighlander]

Frankly, the real situation is that nobody in Ireland really cares about kilts or tartans

Well, that isn't entirely true. I'd agree that the majority of the population doesn't care, but there is a grassroots (albeit small) group called the Irish Kilt Club seeking to make the kilt the national dress.

This is their website & egroup:

http://www.somebody.to/irishkiltclub.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishk...guid=309956929

[Mr. MacDougall]

That web page hasn't been updated since '04, and the mailing list doesn't seem to be more than barely ticking over. I suspect it's not much of a movement.

[macwilkin]

That web page hasn't been updated since '04, and the mailing list doesn't seem to be more than barely ticking over. I suspect it's not much of a movement.

It's my understanding that one of the founding members is very ill, so you might cut them a little slack.

T.

[McClef]

I wore my House of Edgar County Antrim in Ireland and it went down well.

It might be no more Irish than the name but it's a lovely tartan and in the end it's what counts - a tartan will always be liked (or disliked) more than the name it bears.

[Casper]

From what i'm understanding, the Irish in general disapprove of kilts as they don't want their traditions mixed with Scottish ones. I've heard some pretty interesting things from native Irish on the topic. 'Pan-Celtic Garment' or not...

The caveat to that is the growing Ulster-Scots heritage movement in Northern Ireland, though.