6 Nations Rugby Tournament

[McClef]

In this tournament there are 3 "Brit" teams - did you mean one of them or all of them?

[Phil]

I think he meant England - common mistake as you will know only too well. For the sake of others equally confused our present setup here is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (Brits) and Northern Ireland, hence UK on our passports. England, Wales and Scotland make up Britain, Northern Ireland doesn't and the Irish Republic (south) is a completely independant and separate country. To add to the confusion they also include some Northern Irish players from time to time. Most foreigners when they refer to England really mean the British Isles and most English people when referring to Britain and the British are really only referring to themselves. Confusing isn't it?

[davecolorado72]

Without getting into a policy debate, I guess I like to think of each 'nation' as their own entity, regardless of any outside influences from other nations.

Just my opinion on things.

Otherwise it would be the "4 nations" tourney....Britain, Italy, France, and Ireland.

[McClef]

No problem Dave.

You may well think of yourself as a Coloradan first and American second, so it is over here - the Brits occupy the island of Great Britain and comprise of Welsh Scots and English who live in and move around - you get Scots in Wales and English in Scotland etc etc.

We have a common National Anthem for events when the whole Kingdom is being represented and our own individual anthems for when it is the constituent country being represented as for example in Rugby.

The Northern Ireland chap thinking of himself as British is due to the six counties of the Province of Ulster that voted to remain within the United Kingdom rather than go with the rest of Ireland. But you can bet your bottom dollar he thinks of himself as an Ulsterman first. Of course there are others who see themselves as Irish first and indeed, in Rugby, because they do not field their own team in this tournament, many will support Ireland as an all inclusive representative team.

What you will also find is that rivalries can go out of the window - when England was the only UK team in the World Cup, everyone fell behind them and the flags of St George fluttered everywhere, including Wales and Scotland!

[Phil]

We have a common National Anthem for events when the whole Kingdom is being represented and our own individual anthems for when it is the constituent country being represented as for example in Rugby.

I have to differ on this one - I know of very few, if any, Scots who acknowledge the "National Anthem" no doubt due to its verse -
"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King."
hardly something the population here thinks it should go along with.

In common with Cessna I have Ulster relations and they fiercely regard themselves as British first, second and last. I recently had my nose bitten off when I raised the prospect of an "Irish wedding". "It will be nothing of the kind" I was told in no uncertain terms "It will be a British wedding". Times there may have moved on but attitudes certainly have not.

Finally I have to assume that you did not visit Scotland during the rugby world cup as I only recall seeing one English flag and that was in a quiet country place in the north of Scotland. Everyone else from our then First Minister Jack McConnell down preferred to support whichever team England was playing. Nothing xenophobic there of course, just the natural Scottish regard for the underdog because let's face it, the English sporting media never tire of telling us how everyone else is just that.
I will be supporting Wales from now on but Italy this afternoon.

[McClef]

The verse you cite Phil is a defunct one that has almost certainly never used for some considerable time. It represents an attitude which has almost died out with the dinosaurs. Like it or not it is still the official anthem of the United Kingdom as a whole and the tune is also the Royal Anthem of Norway, of Lichtenstein and they even sing the tune in the USA! My Country T'is of Thee.

The number of people who know even the second verse these days is considerably limited. There are many verses of songs that have been dropped with time and words get changed. Even if one chooses not to sing the words, the tune is the same.

The idea of Country anthems within the UK is of more recent antiquity. The Wales anthem Hen Wlad Fy'n Hadau is nineteenth century and the "English" Land of Hope and Glory (this is still considered Brit in some circumstances) early 20th. Heck Scotland the Brave as a tune is early 20th and the words from the 1950s and Flower of Scotland even later though its popularity over other candidates is undisputed.

As to the flags - I saw very many in Wales and media coverage showed them in Scotland also. Maybe they only came out for the cameras?

[beowulf67]

I've been trying to follow it. Didn't get to see any on Saturday though. I pretty much pull for all the teams where my family came from-Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England.

Today I've been watching the 7's from San Diego. Wish I could have gone to that! I've been looking for kilts in the crowd shots but haven't seen any yet.

[Phil]

I was giving that verse as a possible reason why virtually no-one in Scotland sings the "National" anthem. As a schoolboy in Wales for a few years I myself found it a little strange when returning to Scotland that at times like the end of cinema performances when the anthem was played, instead of standing everyone made a mad scramble for the exit. I don't know if people still stand for the anthem in Wales but this was over 40 years ago and it is many years since I have heard it played anywhere other than on TV.
I can't say I find "Flower of Scotland" a particularly apposite anthem and would much prefer something like "The man's a man for a that" which reflects more closely the Scottish attitude to those who seek to set themselves above others by a mere accident of birth.
Any English flags flying in Scotland would no doubt belong to English people who had moved here. I have to admit feelings of antipathy to see such a thing in my country although I would never contemplate the sort of action taken by others to remove them and damage property.

[McClef]

The days are long gone when they played the anthem in cinemas Phil but I remember when it was that many made that famous mad scramble for the exit!

Theses days at events in Wales - such as our choir concerts for example, we start with God Save the Queen and end with Hen Wlad Fy'n Hadau. At rugby internationals it's purely the latter.

In July 2006, the Royal Scottish National Orchestra conducted an online poll (publicised by Reporting Scotland) in which voters could choose a national anthem from one of five candidates. 10,000 people took part in the poll in which Flower of Scotland came out a clear winner. The results were as follows:

Flower of Scotland 41%
Scotland the Brave 29%
Highland Cathedral 16%
A Man's a Man for A' That 7%
Scots Wha Hae 7%

And in both Scotland and Wales you see many Union Jacks flying alongside the National flags - Wales isn't even represented on the Union Jack whereas Scotland is.

[Phil]

And in both Scotland and Wales you see many Union Jacks flying alongside the National flags - Wales isn't even represented on the Union Jack whereas Scotland is.

Yes, Flower of Scotland has definitely come out top, probably because of the rugby. I even saw Princess Ann singing it at one game - wonder what mummy thought of that?
Does it not bother you that Wales isn't represented on the flag? Mind you the Saltire is becoming more prevalent here now, more and more than the Union flag.