Frugal Scotsmen

[Pleater]

In the Diskworld novels there is a character called Sam Vimes - Commander of the Watch in the city of Ankh-Morpork.

He has a take on buying boots which is slightly relevant.

A poor man will buy a pair of boots for ten dollars, and wear them for a year even though they started to let in the water long before then.

A rich man will buy a pair of boots for fifty dollars and they will keep the water out and last for a long time.

Ten years down the line the poor man has paid out double the price of a pair of good boots, and he still has wet feet.

Under his command, however, Vimes has an ex soldier who collected boots from the battlefields - from those who no longer had much use for them, and went into the second hand boot market, with sidelines in teeth and jewelry.

I supose it is all a matter of examining the options.....

[James MacMillan]

Hi folks,
Just got off of the "bay", looking for some great deals. Now I spent 1 - 2 hours looking for good deals. Found little that I wanted to afford.

Why do scots spend so much time looking for a great deal on everything and then go buy a tank? If scotsmen are so frugal, why spend hundreds of dollars on clothing? Frugal YES, but why develop a garment that requires 8 yards of material? And all the accessories, sporrans arrn't cheap, sgian dubhs, dirks, balmorals, fly's, argylls, PC's...

Help me understand!

Wally – speaking in generalities and knowing that there are always exceptions -

I think you are looking for an answer to your question of Why, not a definition of frugal, cheap miserly, thrifty, and the many other definitions of knowing value for dollar/pound/rubal/peso.

To me, and in my understanding, folks from our background take their heritage from people who lived in a harsh land. They had little, and had to make the most of what they had. These lessons were passed on to us.

High quality always means high value. High quality for a lower price equates to higher value. Bargaining for a still cheaper price elevates the value still higher. Making the same valued item yourself, or trading an un-wanted item for it is probably the highest of achievements! We really appreciate a good deal!

This same type of frugal-ness can be found in children of the great depression. They (and we, by condition and training) are reluctant to spend money on perceived frivolities, but are not reluctant to spend on requirements.

We (Scottish [kilt wearers]) have determined that we NEED to be kilted. So we have less of a problem spending money on that expense.

What ever label you put on this quality is immaterial. Frugal, cheap, miserly, thrifty, what-ever! What is a fact is that we (as a group) can recognize value when we see it, and are angry and dissatisfied when we are led on or do not receive value for our money.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Why do scots spend so much time looking for a great deal on everything and then go buy a tank?

Because, after looking at pretty much what's available, they opt to spend the money on something that is durable rather than replaceable.

If scotsmen are so frugal, why spend hundreds of dollars on clothing?

Because it is, in the instance of highland wear, good economy. For instance: I bought a kilt in 1969 for GBP 50. Spreading the cost out over 40 years, that kilt has cost me, what, GBP 1.25 a year to own? The long term expenditure is virtually nil.

Frugal YES, but why develop a garment that requires 8 yards of material?

Fashion is the answer. But the side-effect of fashion was that it put more money into the weaving trade (big mills and small weavers alike) thus helping to improve Scotland's rural and urban economy.

And all the accessories, sporrans arrn't cheap, sgian dubhs, dirks, balmorals, fly's, argylls, PC's...

There is a word that I find lacking in most posts. That word is "sufficiency". If you only acquire those items that are sufficient unto your needs (as opposed to your desires) you would be amazed at how far a little money goes in kitting out your highland rig.

Help me understand!

It's like driving an older Rolls-Royce. The quality (and value) remain long after the price is forgotten.

[Bugbear]

I would like to add one other thing to MacMillan of Rathdown's points. As it is constructed today, the tank is not so easily adapted to an expanding waistline. Therefore, a Scott would be less inclined to eat gluttonously, rather sticking to small frugal meals.

However, you, ChattanCat, being a kilt maker, could come up with a solution to that odd feature of the kilt some day...

[ChattanCat]

I’m an Econobite.

Econobite - a very frugal byte, only slightly more frugal than a bit

It is frugal in the broad and long-term sense to acquire a kilt of high quality materials and of highly skilled construction. Such a garment can last a lifetime and more. It pays the maximum of respect to the tradition and practice of The National Dress of Scotland.

Or, they are impractical overpriced luxury fashion costume items for fops, dandies, snobs, and stuffed shirts, etc.
[Incorrect, unfair, and offensive exaggeration.]

It is also frugal in the narrow and short-term sense to acquire a mass produced kilt of “sufficient” quality materials and modern machine mass-produced construction. Such a garment can last as long as any other casual or economy clothing. The tartan examples pay respect to The National Dress of Scotland.

Or, they are trash, garbage, rubbish, and cheap plastic dishrags for punks, slobs, hooligans, and those who don’t know any better, etc. [Incorrect, unfair, and offensive exaggeration.]

Really, which side of the fence are you on?

I am not frugal. I am cheap. Frugal means not buying something because you really don't need it. Cheap is digging deeper for a lower price whether you need it or not. Frank

I think that I am cheap too, but the joy of finding a real deal... now that is... I see Jay has a few thoughts on this.

I think you are looking for an answer to your question of Why, not a definition of frugal, cheap miserly, thrifty, and the many other definitions of knowing value for dollar/pound/rubal/peso.

Yes, Why? That is what I want to know, Why am I so darned frugal. Mind you, I am happiest being frugal.

To me, and in my understanding, folks from our background take their heritage from people who lived in a harsh land. They had little, and had to make the most of what they had. These lessons were passed on to us.

Yes, my biggest complaint growing up was that I did not get enough meat at the dinner table!

High quality always means high value. High quality for a lower price equates to higher value. Bargaining for a still cheaper price elevates the value still higher. Making the same valued item yourself, or trading an un-wanted item for it is probably the highest of achievements! We really appreciate a good deal!

Yes, the thrill of the exceptional good value, bordering on stealing a good deal.

This same type of frugal-ness can be found in children of the great depression. They (and we, by condition and training) are reluctant to spend money on perceived frivolities, but are not reluctant to spend on requirements.

We (Scottish [kilt wearers]) have determined that we NEED to be kilted. So we have less of a problem spending money on that expense.

What ever label you put on this quality is immaterial. Frugal, cheap, miserly, thrifty, what-ever! What is a fact is that we (as a group) can recognize value when we see it, and are angry and dissatisfied when we are led on or do not receive value for our money.

Here! Here!

[ChattanCat]

I would like to add one other thing to MacMillan of Rathdown's points. As it is constructed today, the tank is not so easily adapted to an expanding waistline. Therefore, a Scott would be less inclined to eat gluttonously, rather sticking to small frugal meals.

However, you, ChattanCat, being a kilt maker, could come up with a solution to that odd feature of the kilt some day...

and don't think I havn't been pondering this issue too. I'll have to get back to you Ted, after some thought. Oh yeah, another thing, I ponder all decisions... like I spend a lot of time designing but it takes little time to implement. Is it wrong to plan and research?

[Bugbear]

It's all in the hidden depth of the first and last pleat, ChattanCat. Also, the Matt Newsome style hidden left strap and buckle. One should never move the centering of the back of the kilt. The off centering altoration is the only solution on the tank as it is made now, and it is not acceptable to me. I'll stick to not eating.

Like if I know anything about kiltmaking! Although, it would bother me if the back sid of my kilt were off center in a noticeable way... So I'll keep that as a valid point.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Frugal YES, but why develop a garment that requires 8 yards of material? And all the accessories, sporrans arrn't cheap, sgian dubhs, dirks, balmorals, fly's, argylls, PC's...

Going back to your original question, one has to realize that the modern 8 yard kilt is, by and large, a garment designed for ceremonial wear. 200 plus years ago, when the kilt was still being worn as a work-a-day garment by many Gaelic Scots, it was a 4 yard garment -- only half the material required. And prior to the 1790s the kilt was not a truly tailored garment, either, so very little labor when into making it. And remember, too, that the cloth was not so dear at the time, either. All in all, the kilt, in its origins, is a very frugal garment.

Over the course of the nineteenth century one saw an increase in the amount of cloth used in the kilt, until we have the nominal 8 yard kilt by the end of the 1800s. During this same time, the kilt was being worn less and less for daily wear, and more and more only for special occasions. And when you have an article of clothing being reserved primarily for ceremonial use, you can expect some exaggeration and flare to be incorporated into the style -- the 8 yard kilt.

That's one reason why I'm such a fan of the 4 yard box pleated kilt, especially for those who are interested in wearing the kilt on a more regular basis than just formal dinners and Highland gatherings.

You also mention the high cost of many accessories. Much of what you mentioned belongs to the realm of formal wear. And formal clothing is going to be more pricey than the casual stuff, no matter how you slice it. But unless you attend a lot of black tie affairs, do you really need to buy your own Prince Charlie jacket, or Montrose doublet, or formal sporran, etc? How many men today own their own tux?

All that is really required to wear with the kilt is a good pair of kilt hose, garters, and a sensible sporran for day wear. Every thing else is just gravy that you can add as your budget allows. (Makes Christmas and birthday shopping easy for your loved ones, too!).

Aye,
Matt

[Nick the DSM]

I agree with Matt. You dont need to own all the expensive dress gear, maybe a few pieces but you do not need to own everything.

I dont think most kilties are cheap but they are looking for something at a good prices or a deal.

[ChattanCat]

Every thing else is just gravy that you can add as your budget allows. (Makes Christmas and birthday shopping easy for your loved ones, too!).

Aye,
Matt

I agree with everything you said. As always, thanks. Now how do you/me/we who have a jonesing problem, wait till our birthday and almost a year for christmas???