Help me pick a caubeen

[Brian Boru]

Peacekeeper,
There is also Alexis Malcolm Kilts ( www.alexismalcolmkilts.com) that offer caubeens, I have one each of theirs, a green RIR and a black civilian model, they also offer the Canadian type ($60.00) that has a lower crown and rosette and ribbons. They have hackles and other pins you can put on and each one comes with a badge tab / stiffener inside so that it supports whatever type of badge you put on them. I have my pewter Irish family badge (Duffey) on the green one and a Irish Harp badge on the black one. They have a size chart, just measure your head and then check what size in cm you need, they also adjust with a hidden velcro tab in the band. The black one's peak stands taller than the military green one. Malcolm's get them from the manufacturer who supplies them to the Canadian military, I think. They are $70.00 + shipping by priority mail. I'm quite pleased with both of mine, and Mrs. Malcolm is a pleasure to talk with.

Cheers,

Brian

[O'Callaghan]

With respect, "The IRA wear black caubeens" is a somewhat broad and perhaps not entirely accurate statement. Being the type of paramilitary group that it is, they don't have regular 'uniforms'. While the modern IRA does have an ad-hoc "dress uniform" generally only seen in the 70's at funerals and other photo ops, it's headgear generally consists of a black beret, not a traditional caubeen. It's like saying the flatcap or newsboy is IRA headgear because the volunteers wore them in the 20s!

Without getting into politics, wear what you want! I doubt think anyone, at least in the US, is really going to see you and make a Hat = IRA connection or call you out for wearing a black caubeen!

With respect, have you ever lived anywhere that the IRA is an illegal organisation? I grant that you did say "at least in the US", and I'm sure you're right, but although the OP is in the US he is from the UK. I'm sure you can get away with it in the US, but I don't want anyone to get arrested. I don't think that's really taking a political position.

Why do you think civilian pipers in the Republic sometimes wear green caubeens but never black ones? No other reason comes to mind off the top of my head. I imagine that if it has some insignia or some colour on it (as opposed to just plain black) it may be OK, though.

BTW, I think the band and ribbons on the Irish National Army piper's black caubeen are saffron, although they look orange in the photo of the J Byous version. Probably due to light/camera/monitor issues?

[macwilkin]

The United Irishmen of the 18th century wore a green shamrock in their caubeens, but I don't know what colour their hats were. People still wore caubeens as daily wear back then, so I imagine they were whatever colour they already owned.

I've never seen any contemporary depiction of United Irishmen in the 1798 Rebellion wearing caubeens. There's a veiled reference to one in the song The Wearing of the Green, but it has always been my understanding that the word "caubeen" may also refer to a cap or hat.

The caubeen, as we know it, is a late 19th century innovation, although some have tried to trace it to Owen Roe O'Neill:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...s/es10_t01.gif

Do you have a source for United Irishmen wearing a caubeen?

The IRA wear black caubeens. That could make black a good or bad colour depending on your PoV.

Zardoz is correct; without going anywhere near the troubles, the only photos I have seen of IRA paramilitaries wearing uniforms show them wearing black berets and not caubeens.

And just a point of clarification; the Republic's armed forces are known as the Irish Defence Forces, not the "INA". In the Irish the name is Óglaigh na hÉireann. And, to further clarify, in the IDF, caubeens are known as "glengarries". So while the Irish Air Corps Pipe Band wears Scottish glengarries, Army pipers technically also wear glengarries as well. As a reference/source, I would recommend The Irish Defence Forces since 1922 by Donal MacCarron and Bill Younghusband, Osprey Men-at-Arms Series No. 417. It is one of the best one-volume works on the IDF available, and it does discuss the glengarry/caubeen issue.

Regards,

Todd

[thanmuwa]

it has always been my understanding that the word "caubeen" may also refer to a cap or hat.

Yes, caubeen, from the Irish cáibín, just means little hat, and could equally well mean, for example, a beret.

And just a point of clarification; the Republic's armed forces are known as the Irish Defence Forces, not the "INA". In the Irish the name is Óglaigh na hÉireann.

Which is also the Irish for the IRA. Not surprising I guess when you consider that both the modern IRA and the IDF descend from the original IRA and previous to that the Irish Volunteers, from whence the name.

[O'Callaghan]

And just a point of clarification; the Republic's armed forces are known as the Irish Defence Forces, not the "INA". In the Irish the name is Óglaigh na hÉireann. And, to further clarify, in the IDF, caubeens are known as "glengarries". So while the Irish Air Corps Pipe Band wears Scottish glengarries, Army pipers technically also wear glengarries as well. As a reference/source, I would recommend The Irish Defence Forces since 1922 by Donal MacCarron and Bill Younghusband, Osprey Men-at-Arms Series No. 417. It is one of the best one-volume works on the IDF available, and it does discuss the glengarry/caubeen issue.

Regards,

Todd

When I said INA I was talking about the Army, not the defence forces as a whole, which I know very well are the IDF. The INA and the IRA split from oneanother in the civil war, the former being the uniformed army of the Irish Freestate as then was, and the latter being the rebels who were against partition. It was these two I was trying to distinguish between. If there even is any different current term for just the Army, and there may not be, I don't know what it is, but AFAIK the IDF includes the Air Corps and the Naval Service as well. If they don't have a term to describe just the Army, then INA will do, as anyone who knows the history will know what it means.

I also knew perfectly well that the Army piper's caubeen was officially listed as a glengarry, but you know that just confuses people. Just because some quartermaster mislabelled it and the term stuck doesn't mean it looks like one.

It should be obvious by now that I am not terribly into militaria, just someone trying to describe things in common sense terms.

[macwilkin]

When I said INA I was talking about the Army, not the defence forces as a whole, which I know very well are the IDF. The INA and the IRA split from oneanother in the civil war, the former being the uniformed army of the Irish Freestate as then was, and the latter being the rebels who were against partition. It was these two I was trying to distinguish between. If there even is any different current term for just the Army, and there may not be, I don't know what it is, but AFAIK the IDF includes the Air Corps and the Naval Service as well. If they don't have a term to describe just the Army, then INA will do, as anyone who knows the history will know what it means.

The Irish Army is simply known as "The Irish Army". Whilst the Free State/Pro-Treaty forces during the Irish Civil War were sometimes referred to as the "National Army", it doesn't appear to be the current term today. And yes, the IDF does include the Air Corps and the Naval Service.

I also knew perfectly well that the Army piper's caubeen was officially listed as a glengarry, but you know that just confuses people. Just because some quartermaster mislabelled it and the term stuck doesn't mean it looks like one.

The very fact that is confusing is why I have mentioned the IDF "glengarry". Many military units have their own distinct customs and pecularities; on this forum numerous times we have discussed them for the Scottish regiments. You may see it as "confusing", but I find it interesting.

Todd

[fortcollinsjerry]

you might want to consider a WW II style tam from Penny's of Thunder Bay;

my goodness, Thunder Bay! I haven't heard of that place for ages. There use to be a large motorcycle rally up there. Great hospitality and lots of neat roads to ride.

[O'Callaghan]

Another endorsement for J. Byous. I've been wearing one of their caubeens for several years, and an quite happy with it. Great folks to do business with, too.
Alternatively, since you'd like it to comemorate your military service, you might want to consider a WW II style tam from Penny's of Thunder Bay;

For some reason, I must have skipped this post, until I saw someone else quote it. $25 Canadian for a caubeen at Penny's of Thunder Bay is a very reasonable price. However, the picture you have shown is not their caubeen, but their khaki tam.

[Jack Daw]

Black goes with everything.

[Colonel MacNeal]

The dark green caubeen with your globe/anchor/eagle badge would look mighty sharp.