Scots Wikipaedia

[scottishcurryfan]

Your article makes the point that it is an early offshoot (ie, it is a form of) of English. At the very least, English is by far its closest relative.
My personal opinion is that Scots is clung onto for use as an excuse for the utterly abysmal standard of spelling in this country (the list goes on and on and on!). The only place I have seen worse spelling on shop-signs and so on is on websites like this. The continued existence of the Scots language is convenient, it allows the lowland Scots to justifiably claim that English is a foreign language to them!

I agree entirely.

[skauwt]

Firstly, Scots is not a form of English, its actually just as closely related to Scandianvian languages and Dutch, but has been under English influence for so long that you really have to look deep to see it. There's a really interesting article here: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/scots.htm

From my experience of being a foreigner in Scotland, I can only agree with Skauwt. My impression is that all over the lowlands, and on the islands, those not speaking Gaelic (which are only a few) speak scots most of the time. Apart from in the larger cities, that is. I have no difficulty believing that a third of the population speak Scots.

I think the situation is somewhat comparable to Norway before WW2 - everyone spoke Norwegian, apart from the aristocracy and the church officials, but everyone wrote Danish. Eventually the written language seeps over into the spoken, and you "water out" the spoken language.

OT:
Norway now has two written languages, one based on Danish and one based on spoken Norwegian. Only problem being that with over 200 quite distinct dialects, you get to the point where you have to choose which dialects not to include in the written. For instance, the simple word "I" can be very different from one area to the other (jeg, eg, ek, i, e, æh, je), and two have been chosen as written forms. Some linguists have argued that the differences between western Norwegian and northern Norwegian (dialects of same language) are greater than those between Bosnian and Croatian (separate languages).

BACK ON TRACK:
This is what happens to Scots now, hopefully they'll start teaching Scots in schools so that a proud people can reclaim their beautiful language.

i think your spot on with saying that scots is more related to Scandinavian languages and Dutch than English when hearing Scandinavian or dutch speakers i find it rather easy to pick out words and sayings that are spoken here in the central belt its just with having to listen to English and read English it has watered Scots down ,

i don't know why those other two central belt folk mention the lowlands that area are miles from the central belt so lallans Scots isn't really spoken in this part of Scotland

Scots is dieing out mainly due to advances in modern technology id reckon with all the internet and tv it`ll be just a regional dialect of the UK if we are not careful
and no one talks like the broons cos its a cartoon created in 1936 made to be overly Scots for media readers
i`ll admit folk may not use half those words but i for one still speak scots some may say otherwise but they can say what they want.... anyone who denies that i speak scots well they are just numpties to be honest

[scottishcurryfan]

i think your spot on with saying that scots is more related to Scandinavian languages and Dutch than English when hearing Scandinavian or dutch speakers i find it rather easy to pick out words and sayings that are spoken here in the central belt its just with having to listen to English and read English it has watered Scots down ,

i don't know why those other two central belt folk mention the lowlands that area are miles from the central belt so lallans Scots isn't really spoken in this part of Scotland

Scots is dieing out mainly due to advances in modern technology id reckon with all the internet and tv it`ll be just a regional dialect of the UK if we are not careful
and no one talks like the broons cos its a cartoon created in 1936 made to be overly Scots for media readers
i`ll admit folk may not use half those words but i for one still speak scots some may say otherwise but they can say what they want.... anyone who denies that i speak scots well they are just numpties to be honest

I would say I speak english with a scottish accent. Just as scousers speak english with a liverpool accent. Some words might be a little differant however nearly all of it is derived from english.

I travel to the highlands regularly and I would not say they speak anything other than english or gaelic.

[thanmuwa]

i don't know why those other two central belt folk mention the lowlands that area are miles from the central belt so lallans Scots isn't really spoken in this part of Scotland

It is a simple binary thing. In my head, anything not the Highlands is the Lowlands. That includes the central belt, the borders etc.. Admittedly, it is a rough and fuzzy distinction, but I consider Glasgow to be Lowlands... (The lack of big pointy lumps of rock surrounding us was my first clue .)

[skauwt]

It is a simple binary thing. In my head, anything not the Highlands is the Lowlands. That includes the central belt, the borders etc.. Admittedly, it is a rough and fuzzy distinction, but I consider Glasgow to be Lowlands... (The lack of big pointy lumps of rock surrounding us was my first clue .)

perhaps it could be something to do with living in a large vally inbetween the highland and lowlands that stops you seeing those big lumpy things

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion is the simple fact that speaking Scots (or Gaelic), in preference to English, places the speaker at a distinct disadvantage in the modern world. Like it or not, English is the first/second language of the developed world. While it is culturally interesting to learn Scots (or Gaelic) the language is, by and large, pointless outside of a very narrow geographic region in western Europe.

While I accept that ideas of nationalism are often rooted in language as much as in race, there comes a time in the continuing development of a country when its primary language will begin to evolve in a different direction from that language spoken in centuries past. When that happens, when that linguistic thermadorian point is reached, a nation either continues to evolve and grow culturally, or it retreats, becomes set in aspic, and becomes a matter of curiosity rather than a society of ideas and vibrant growth.

Technologies-- printing, radio, television, phonographic recording, the stage and cinema-- have, over the past 400 years, made English the standard language of Scotland, and made Scots valued partners in the global union of nearly one billion English speakers.

[scottishcurryfan]

Scottish nationalism has never been about race. The scots themselves are not a race we are a community and culture of people.

However, I would not choose to spend my time learning gaelic. I would have had it been taught in schools like in ireland. However, I see greater benefits of learning a european language over gaelic anyday.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

However, I would not choose to spend my time learning gaelic. I would have had it been taught in schools like in ireland.

According to Kevin Meyers in today's Irish Independent 23% of Irish school leavers are functionally illiterate. The forced feeding (and that's what it is) of the Irish language is considered to be a major factor in this failure of the educational system. Far better, it would seem to me, if those five weekly hours of Irish were replaced with teaching basic reading, writing, and math skills.

Students attending all-Irish schools are further disenfranchised by the fact that many of their text books are in English, whilst the lectures are delivered in Irish. That school leavers from Gaelic schools receive a lesser education is proved by the fact that they are given a 10% "bonus" on their leaving certificate scores for taking the examination in the Irish language in order to assist them in qualifing for placement in Irish universities.

[Heming]

Like it or not, English is the first/second language of the developed world.

This is not true. Poor, distorted English is the common second language of the developed world. English is the first language of many countries, but many other languages are larger, and many as large. Think of Mandarine Chinese, or for that matter Spanish.

English is the preferred language for international trade in the western world, and as a result many people learn some English. But why is it that a Norwegian can understand a Finn speaking English, but struggles to understand a Londoner or someone from Miami or Sydney? Because the English of the international community isn't English. It's corrupted, adulterated English, washed, wrung and hung out to dry.

English is doing irrevocable damage to other languages because of it's role as the international trade language. This is natural, and expected, but still damage. A bit like the weather wearing down mountains.

End of rant.

[thanmuwa]

According to Kevin Meyers in today's Irish Independent 23% of Irish school leavers are functionally illiterate. The forced feeding (and that's what it is) of the Irish language is considered to be a major factor in this failure of the educational system. Far better, it would seem to me, if those five weekly hours of Irish were replaced with teaching basic reading, writing, and math skills.

Kevin myers is hardly a neutral observer. He is a highly partisan commentator with a major political axe to grind who is not above at the very least misquoting if not downright fabricating statistics to support his cause (He hates the Irish language amongst many other things).
I have direct personal experience of both the UK and Irish education systems and the Irish secondary-level one (in it's present form, I only left tertiary level education 6 years ago) is superior.

I agree that Irish is taught terribly (there aren't words to describe how awful the teaching of Irish is in general... for a start, imagine learning grammar by rote for 6 years with no conversational lessons at all!), but the other core subjects are taught to a level equal or above, for example, the equivalent in Northern Ireland. (Northern Ireland is acknowledged as being top across the board in the UK for education, based on school results.) This is based directly on how my Irish second-level education compared with Northern Irish students in the same degree programme in Queen's, Belfast. In Maths for example they were still coming across new concepts that I had already done in school until at least halfway through our first year.

Students attending all-Irish schools are further disenfranchised by the fact that many of their text books are in English, whilst the lectures are delivered in Irish. That school leavers from Gaelic schools receive a lesser education is proved by the fact that they are given a 10% "bonus" on their leaving certificate scores for taking the examination in the Irish language in order to assist them in qualifing for placement in Irish universities.

I love the way you deliberately put two unlinked items in a sentence in such a way as to imply a link that doesn't exist. You may not have been a politician (I don't know) but you certainly picked up a few tips on politician speak! The Gaelscoileanna (Irish speaking schools) are a much more recent invention than the bonus points for doing exams in Irish, the bonus points weren't invented to get educationally sub-par Irish speakers into Uni as you imply. The bonus was a failed way to encourage Irish, the Gaelscoileanna (which started up about 50 years afterwards, they are a recent phenomenon) are what is looking like a successful attempt to encourage Irish. Which is incidentally what kevin myers has a problem with.
Your implication that Irish speakers need additional help to get to University is just plain false. Getting results of the level to allow you you to go to Uni means that you got little or no bonus for doing your exams in Irish (they are awarded on a sliding scale - top results (i.e. Uni level) = no bonus).

There is another major advantage to the Gaelscoileanna apart from the obvious preservation of a language that was the first modern European language to be written down, and the language of the people who almost alone were responsible for preserving Western European Christianity during the Dark Ages.
Students who grow up actually speaking Irish tend to have a major advantage in that they can read, write and think in two distinct languages. Being a duoglot is a strong stepping stone to becoming a polyglot. You go into a shop in Dublin and the fictional Dublin guy behind the counter will speak one language - English. You go into a shop in the Connemara Gaeltacht and there is a good chance you will get by in French, German or Spanish. To put it another way, the Irish people I know with fluent Irish (and English obviously) to a man/woman have at least two other fluent languages, and a smattering of several more. Surely polyglottism is to be encouraged rather than looked on with suspicion?