-
7th August 09, 09:28 AM
#11
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
But for the modern day reenactor, as we don't have written directions from the period, all we have to go on are historic portraits showing it being worn. So any way that you can arrange the plaid so that the end result looks like the portrait or portraits you are going by is a legitimate method.
Which takes us back to my original point: we AREN'T achieving the end results shown in the period images using our tried-and-true "modern" methods, which leads to the conclusion that, however the historic highlanders were donning (or constructing - belt loops? rings and drawstrings?)their plaids, it is a "lost art."
Here's another example: the famous painting "A Pinch of Snuff" from ca. 1750. Look closely and you see that the pleating consists of crisp, even, wide box-pleats. I for one can't arrive at that end result by any method I've tried to belt on a plaid...!
Brian
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
-
-
7th August 09, 10:40 AM
#12
I don't know about history, but when my girlfriend wears a sari she get help putting it on. A sari, by the way, is a woman's dress from India. It is about 8 yards long, pleated, and worn around the waist with some material draped over the shoulder and pinned.
Last edited by The Guy in the Kilt at UC; 7th August 09 at 10:40 AM.
Reason: Added a picture
-
-
7th August 09, 11:00 AM
#13
I think Nighthawk hit on a good point about the fact that these are portraits. Portraits were expensive to have made and I'm sure that it would have been important to be dressed to the nines and as perfectly as possible. That implies to me that the way the kilts look in portraits are the ideal for the time not the norm. It would have been worth taking the time and effort to get the pleats just so if you knew how you looked was going to be preserved for posterity. For day to day dress, that may not have been the case. I know I certainly dress much better than normal when I'm having a formal picture taken.
[B][U]Jay[/U][/B]
[B]Clan Rose[/B]-[SIZE="2"][B][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Constant and True[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"][I]"I cut a stout blackthorn to banish ghosts and goblins; In a brand new pair of brogues to ramble o'er the bogs and frighten all the dogs " - D. K. Gavan[/I][/SIZE]
-
-
7th August 09, 11:12 AM
#14
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by JRB
I think Nighthawk hit on a good point about the fact that these are portraits. Portraits were expensive to have made and I'm sure that it would have been important to be dressed to the nines and as perfectly as possible. That implies to me that the way the kilts look in portraits are the ideal for the time not the norm. It would have been worth taking the time and effort to get the pleats just so if you knew how you looked was going to be preserved for posterity. For day to day dress, that may not have been the case. I know I certainly dress much better than normal when I'm having a formal picture taken.
Not only that, but the average Highlander wouldn't have had his portrait taken. We're looking at people of wealth, dressed in their best, in those pictures. We are left to only speculate on the day to day wear of the average man- leading back to the "lost art" question again!
And Woodsheal- as to the crispness of those pleats, my clan chief keeps his great kilt pleated even when he's not wearing. The result of years of wear and years of remaining pleated has left it looking crisp and pressed. If the gentleman in the picture were wearing a sort of "special occasion" kilt for the pose, then it could easily be that he had done the same, or something similar. Just speculation of course...
"Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.
-
-
7th August 09, 11:17 AM
#15
And another thought I just had- the portrait itself is done by an artist, and not a photographer. That leaves a lot of room fr personal interpretation, touch up, exageration of the good and downplay of the bad... I hadn't thought about that aspect before!
"Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.
-
-
7th August 09, 12:45 PM
#16
So, basically what you gents seem to be saying is that these portrait subjects used our common method - throwing the plaid out on the floor or ground and hand-pleating it - but were more careful about it? Not sure I'm buying that. I don't see how the precise, even pleating shown can be achieved that way.
What I think we perhaps see evidence of is "cheating" by the well-off, who probably did not spend 24 hours a day in their plaids like common clansmen did (unless on campaign). As mentioned previously, there are hints of belt-loops and draw-strings in the primary evidence, as well as servants' helping hands, as UC Guy brought up. I think these "upper crust" Highlanders were availing themselves of these or similar advantages in their desire to look fine!
As for these paintings themselves, I don't see much evidence of artistic license, except of course in the backgrounds. The details of weapons, uniforms and clothing, etc., are almost photographic....
Brian
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
-
-
7th August 09, 01:10 PM
#17
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by Woodsheal
So, basically what you gents seem to be saying is that these portrait subjects used our common method - throwing the plaid out on the floor or ground and hand-pleating it - but were more careful about it? Not sure I'm buying that. I don't see how the precise, even pleating shown can be achieved that way.
What I think we perhaps see evidence of is "cheating" by the well-off, who probably did not spend 24 hours a day in their plaids like common clansmen did (unless on campaign). As mentioned previously, there are hints of belt-loops and draw-strings in the primary evidence, as well as servants' helping hands, as UC Guy brought up. I think these "upper crust" Highlanders were availing themselves of these or similar advantages in their desire to look fine!
As for these paintings themselves, I don't see much evidence of artistic license, except of course in the backgrounds. The details of weapons, uniforms and clothing, etc., are almost photographic....
I didn't so much mean artistic liscence as artistic interpretation. Give two artists the same apple, and you will get two different paintings of two different apples. As to the cheating by the well off- I won't argue with, but for, your assessment there. There was more than likely cheating and help going on. And no, my friend does not spend 24 hours a day in his either, of course. In fact, he only wear it a few times a year. But keeping it neatly pleated when it's not being worn has made natural creases in the tartan. This page has a picture of it unpleated and stretched out:
http://www.renscots.org/gallery.htm
Unfortunately this page has the only picture of him in his kilt...
http://www.renscots.org/clan.html
So annoyingly, you'll just have to trust me on the appearance of the pleats. I'll get a picture tomorrow at the Colorado Scottish Festival to show you.
"Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.
-
-
7th August 09, 01:16 PM
#18
I think Woodsheal has brought up an excellent observation, one that I pondered a few times myself. Somehow, I can't see someone laying on the ground and pleating a length of tartan, then pleating the aprons as well before belting it on.
However, I have heard of (and tried) the method of throwing the pleated plaid over a shoulder and then adjusting it. All I can say is that to make it work takes a lot of effort and perhaps those of old had practiced it enough to make it work. I have laid it on the floor of a British military wedge tent, and on the dew-wet grass, but after seeing the bogs of the highlands, I can't see as how they would have done the same. But then again, if they took it off to use as a blanket while sleeping, gathering it up in some rough pleats to put back on before wearing is perhaps reasonable.
I've also thought that perhaps the artists of the time have used some artistic licence in trying to show a what was considered a "primitive" garment. It doesn't take too much effort to visualize a length of cloth just gathered up and belted on when you see these paintings. Also, after they've been worn for several hours, especially if any physical effort has been involved, the plaid does begin to look a bit disheveled.
A good discussion and I'm enjoying the reasoned comments being offered.
Virginia Commissioner, Elliot Clan Society, USA
Adjutant, 1745 Appin Stewart Regiment
Scottish-American Military Society
US Marine (1970-1999)
-
-
7th August 09, 02:01 PM
#19
I still hand-pleat my great kilt on my king-size bed; and, I can get it done and on within about 10 minutes. But, who's to say that some of the great kilts in the 1740s did not have the pleats sewn in? Maybe the common Highlander didn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if the gentry did. For a country to have invented so much in so little time, it doesn't come as a surprise to me that the Highlander could have thought of sewing in the pleats.
Last edited by Jack Daw; 7th August 09 at 02:07 PM.
-
-
7th August 09, 02:28 PM
#20
Sewed in pleats
I sewed the pleats into my great kilt[1]. Thanks to Ohio summer weather I used as little fabric as I could get away with... I'm about 5 yards or so which gives me a handful of shallow pleats. Can't tell they are sewn in when its being worn.
[1] If I ever have to do another, I'm going to sew the pleats directly into/throw a braided belt. That just makes much more sense for a quick-wear in a hotel room.
-
Similar Threads
-
By Kilted Craanen in forum Kilt Advice
Replies: 38
Last Post: 22nd September 09, 12:54 PM
-
By gasbag in forum How to Accessorize your Kilt
Replies: 9
Last Post: 22nd June 09, 05:06 AM
-
By mrtackytn in forum Kilt Advice
Replies: 9
Last Post: 3rd March 09, 12:02 PM
-
By Amoskeag in forum General Kilt Talk
Replies: 3
Last Post: 21st January 08, 05:39 PM
-
By Dutchomatic in forum Kilt Advice
Replies: 74
Last Post: 12th January 08, 09:36 PM
Posting Permissions
- You may not post new threads
- You may not post replies
- You may not post attachments
- You may not edit your posts
-
Forum Rules
|
|
Bookmarks