X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Celtic Croft website Celtic Corner website Houston Kiltmakers

User Tag List

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 49

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    M. A. C. Newsome is offline
    INACTIVE

    Contributing Tartan Historian
    Join Date
    26th January 05
    Location
    Western NC
    Posts
    5,714
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The thing to remember is that we are dealing, for the most part, with a length of untailored cloth that has been arranged around the body. Historic portraits show that it was worn in a variety of different ways. So rather than there being one "correct" way to wear the belted plaid, there were a multitude of ways.

    The othe thing to keep in mind, as Rathdown mentions, is that we do not have anywhere written instructions saying how it was put on. This was part of their everyday life. It was something people just learned how to do and did, like us tying our shoes. There was no need for them to record how they did it.

    So I doubt very much we'll ever get a definitive answer as to whether they put it on lying down, or standing up, or some other method. My hunch is the answer would have been "yes" to all of the above, and different people would have had different methods of putting it on at different times.

    In my own experience doing both reenactments as well as educational demonstrations, I've put on the belted plaid both lying down and standing. I am able to achieve a neater and more controlled look when I do it lying down. But sometimes the circumstances of where I was getting dressed made standing up a better choice. I expect the historic highlander would likely have used different methods based on circumstances, as well.

    But for the modern day reenactor, as we don't have written directions from the period, all we have to go on are historic portraits showing it being worn. So any way that you can arrange the plaid so that the end result looks like the portrait or portraits you are going by is a legitimate method.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    2nd October 07
    Location
    Denver, Colorado- a mile high, baby!
    Posts
    6,147
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome View Post
    The thing to remember is that we are dealing, for the most part, with a length of untailored cloth that has been arranged around the body. Historic portraits show that it was worn in a variety of different ways. So rather than there being one "correct" way to wear the belted plaid, there were a multitude of ways.

    The othe thing to keep in mind, as Rathdown mentions, is that we do not have anywhere written instructions saying how it was put on. This was part of their everyday life. It was something people just learned how to do and did, like us tying our shoes. There was no need for them to record how they did it.

    So I doubt very much we'll ever get a definitive answer as to whether they put it on lying down, or standing up, or some other method. My hunch is the answer would have been "yes" to all of the above, and different people would have had different methods of putting it on at different times.

    In my own experience doing both reenactments as well as educational demonstrations, I've put on the belted plaid both lying down and standing. I am able to achieve a neater and more controlled look when I do it lying down. But sometimes the circumstances of where I was getting dressed made standing up a better choice. I expect the historic highlander would likely have used different methods based on circumstances, as well.

    But for the modern day reenactor, as we don't have written directions from the period, all we have to go on are historic portraits showing it being worn. So any way that you can arrange the plaid so that the end result looks like the portrait or portraits you are going by is a legitimate method.
    A much shorter and more concise way of saying exactly what I was trying to get at! Thanks, Matt.
    "Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    8th June 04
    Location
    Port Crane, New York
    Posts
    2,531
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome View Post

    But for the modern day reenactor, as we don't have written directions from the period, all we have to go on are historic portraits showing it being worn. So any way that you can arrange the plaid so that the end result looks like the portrait or portraits you are going by is a legitimate method.
    Which takes us back to my original point: we AREN'T achieving the end results shown in the period images using our tried-and-true "modern" methods, which leads to the conclusion that, however the historic highlanders were donning (or constructing - belt loops? rings and drawstrings?)their plaids, it is a "lost art."

    Here's another example: the famous painting "A Pinch of Snuff" from ca. 1750. Look closely and you see that the pleating consists of crisp, even, wide box-pleats. I for one can't arrive at that end result by any method I've tried to belt on a plaid...!
    Brian

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin

  4. #4
    shawhighlander's Avatar
    shawhighlander is offline Oops, it seems this member needs to update their email address
    Join Date
    6th March 06
    Location
    Boulder, Colorado
    Posts
    424
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsheal View Post
    Which takes us back to my original point: we AREN'T achieving the end results shown in the period images...
    Here's another example: the famous painting
    Oan a wee note, this is a painting, donned in the style of the artist's eye.
    Aye ith:
    Eòin ~
    Official Music Site ~ Jonathan Walden
    Clan Shaw website
    "Don't skirt the issue, call it for what it is""

  5. #5
    Join Date
    2nd October 07
    Location
    Denver, Colorado- a mile high, baby!
    Posts
    6,147
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by shawhighlander View Post
    Oan a wee note, this is a painting, donned in the style of the artist's eye.
    Aye ith:
    Where have I read that before...?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    That's why I love experimental archaeology. Reenactors may sometimes get things wrong, but a lot of information has been gleened from going out and doing.
    I couldn't agree more! I've learned so much by doing.
    "Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    30th May 09
    Posts
    557
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't know about history, but when my girlfriend wears a sari she get help putting it on. A sari, by the way, is a woman's dress from India. It is about 8 yards long, pleated, and worn around the waist with some material draped over the shoulder and pinned.

    Last edited by The Guy in the Kilt at UC; 7th August 09 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Added a picture

  7. #7
    Join Date
    20th May 07
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    2,209
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think Nighthawk hit on a good point about the fact that these are portraits. Portraits were expensive to have made and I'm sure that it would have been important to be dressed to the nines and as perfectly as possible. That implies to me that the way the kilts look in portraits are the ideal for the time not the norm. It would have been worth taking the time and effort to get the pleats just so if you knew how you looked was going to be preserved for posterity. For day to day dress, that may not have been the case. I know I certainly dress much better than normal when I'm having a formal picture taken.
    Jay
    Clan Rose - Constant and True
    "I cut a stout blackthorn to banish ghosts and goblins; In a brand new pair of brogues to ramble o'er the bogs and frighten all the dogs " - D. K. Gavan

  8. #8
    Join Date
    2nd October 07
    Location
    Denver, Colorado- a mile high, baby!
    Posts
    6,147
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    I think Nighthawk hit on a good point about the fact that these are portraits. Portraits were expensive to have made and I'm sure that it would have been important to be dressed to the nines and as perfectly as possible. That implies to me that the way the kilts look in portraits are the ideal for the time not the norm. It would have been worth taking the time and effort to get the pleats just so if you knew how you looked was going to be preserved for posterity. For day to day dress, that may not have been the case. I know I certainly dress much better than normal when I'm having a formal picture taken.
    Not only that, but the average Highlander wouldn't have had his portrait taken. We're looking at people of wealth, dressed in their best, in those pictures. We are left to only speculate on the day to day wear of the average man- leading back to the "lost art" question again!

    And Woodsheal- as to the crispness of those pleats, my clan chief keeps his great kilt pleated even when he's not wearing. The result of years of wear and years of remaining pleated has left it looking crisp and pressed. If the gentleman in the picture were wearing a sort of "special occasion" kilt for the pose, then it could easily be that he had done the same, or something similar. Just speculation of course...
    "Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    2nd October 07
    Location
    Denver, Colorado- a mile high, baby!
    Posts
    6,147
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    And another thought I just had- the portrait itself is done by an artist, and not a photographer. That leaves a lot of room fr personal interpretation, touch up, exageration of the good and downplay of the bad... I hadn't thought about that aspect before!
    "Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    8th June 04
    Location
    Port Crane, New York
    Posts
    2,531
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So, basically what you gents seem to be saying is that these portrait subjects used our common method - throwing the plaid out on the floor or ground and hand-pleating it - but were more careful about it? Not sure I'm buying that. I don't see how the precise, even pleating shown can be achieved that way.
    What I think we perhaps see evidence of is "cheating" by the well-off, who probably did not spend 24 hours a day in their plaids like common clansmen did (unless on campaign). As mentioned previously, there are hints of belt-loops and draw-strings in the primary evidence, as well as servants' helping hands, as UC Guy brought up. I think these "upper crust" Highlanders were availing themselves of these or similar advantages in their desire to look fine!

    As for these paintings themselves, I don't see much evidence of artistic license, except of course in the backgrounds. The details of weapons, uniforms and clothing, etc., are almost photographic....
    Brian

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Piper's plaid/Full plaid with an Argyll jacket?
    By Kilted Craanen in forum Kilt Advice
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 22nd September 09, 12:54 PM
  2. Pipers plaid/ fly plaid
    By gasbag in forum How to Accessorize your Kilt
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 22nd June 09, 05:06 AM
  3. What can go on the fly plaid?
    By mrtackytn in forum Kilt Advice
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 3rd March 09, 12:02 PM
  4. Day Plaid
    By Amoskeag in forum General Kilt Talk
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 21st January 08, 05:39 PM
  5. Shoulder plaid(e)/ Day plaid(e)
    By Dutchomatic in forum Kilt Advice
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 12th January 08, 09:36 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0