Normal or formal?

[MacLowlife]

Those Limey eyes, they were eying the prize some people call manly footwear
They say "you're from down south" and when you open your mouth, you always seem to put your foot there.

I think Gary P Nunn is the one who wrote that. He was actually talking about Texas and cowboy boots, but it's a nice tie in.

In some places, like South Carolina, there are white tie events around Christmas and Thanksgiving- debutante balls where the men wear tails and white gloves and the ladies wear white gloves that reach over their elbows. Dresses reach the floor and everyone is on their best behavior. At least until they have too much to drink. Additionally, many weddings include white tie for the groom and maybe his ushers. It's a way of being more dressed up than the guests.

McMillan has observed that the wearing of formal slippers is slightly different- at once dressy and not quite right for going out, though I have noticed gentlemen wearing them at private parties "in public", i.e., not in their own homes. No doubt this is pushing things, but acceptable.

At least since the Kennedy inauguration, efforts have been made to subtly democratize the inaugural balls, but I believe Presidents still wear white tie from time to time at state dinners.

Any formal wear shop will rent you a set of tails. Brooks Brothers and Joseph Bank sell them. EBay is awash in them, both traditionally correct and , um, less orthodox styles. Some demand must exist.

Since rental shoes seem somehow more intimate ( and less likely to fit) than rental coats and trousers, many men wear their own black shoes with rented ( hired, for the UK gents) formal wear. And you see the entire gamut, from stylish and correct through barely acceptable all of the way to "he really should have known better." I find that someone else usually has on pumps any time I wear them, even if the guy next to him is wearing weejuns. As for effeminacy ( no offense taken, by the way ) I find them to be less effete than patent leather oxfords, which is what some others prefer.

I guess it could be called a social class thing or it could be called something else. Again, throughout much of the South and the East ( Philadelphia, New York, Boston) there are people who don't have much money at all who observe traditions that go unnoticed elsewhere. Whether that is good or bad or silly, I can't say. It just is.

I'll just leave with this. I wear a bow tie fairly often and I have already admitted to the shoes. When I put on a kilt, I figure people might notice my shoes or my tie ( or even a jabot) but the first thing they will see is that I'm not wearing any trousers. If they get past that, then they might worry about the rest.

[longhuntr74]

LOL...Thanks Mac! Humorous, informative, and rational! Thanks also to MacM. I consider myself fairly well educated on the social graces, traditions, and etiquette. I agree with MacLL's point about not needing to be rich to have class, etc. As a career military officer, I'm also somewhat disappointed in how far we've moved away from certain long-standing traditions...among them are periodic formal dining functions...both with our spouses/significant others...as well as the unit only affairs. The most entertaining night of my career was as a second lieutenant when I attended an "officer's mess" in my special forces battalion....but I'm getting off topic here....back to my point. I fear that if it weren't for the occasional ball or wedding, that I would never have the opportunity to wear black tie. I've NEVER been invited to or even aware of any white tie events...which is why I asked the question. Seems to be one of those traditions that has started to decline in American society at least. I guess we're all too busy surfing our kilt forums to go to actual social events where we interact with people face to face!!! :-)

[MacLowlife]

Hey Longhuntr, if you hear a Southern drawl coming through somebody's keffayeh ( sp) ask 'em if their CO goes to fancy balls in white tie. The guy down the street from me ( who does) served in Desert Shield, I believe, and some of our guardsmen are pretty hoity-toity. The coolest black tie garments I have ever seen have to be UK mess jackets, privately tailored, I suspect for regimental dinners. MoR can probably tell us more about them, or somebody. (I believe they are worn with boots, but not Tony Lamas or Justins.)

I am always on the look out for a red wool tailcoat ( 40, 41, 42 ) that can be remade into a PC. Anyone who sends me in the right direction will receive my laurel and hearty handshake, as well as stars in your heavenly crown.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well, I was going to suggest "Bertie Wooster" out on the Fullham Road, but then I remembered that they brought down the shutters in '06. You might try searching for a toast masters coat on ebay, or you could simply ask Costello & Sons in Ilford (north London) to make you one.

[Garry Oak]

Pumps with grosgrain bows effeminate? Nah.

MacMillan of Rathdown mentioned,

Although some gentlemen do wear pumps with black tie, this is not really the norm-- especially in the USA.

True; it's not the norm here. On the other hand, I've occasionally wished that I'd bought a copy of whatever publication it was which had a full-page photograph of Ronald Reagan in black tie (tuxedo/dinner suit). I'm not making a political comment; both his allies and his opponents reported that the man truly knew how to wear clothes well. It's possible that he was in white tie in that photograph, but I think not.

At any rate, his shoes in the picture were patent leather dress pumps, with bows on the toes. By themselves, the shoes might look effeminate but, with the right attitude, men can wear them with aplomb.

The same attitude causes a man to tell himself, "Yes, I am studly enough to wear a kilt!"

[Asser 1]

Pumps with grosgrain bows effeminate? Nah.

MacMillan of Rathdown mentioned,



True; it's not the norm here. On the other hand, I've occasionally wished that I'd bought a copy of whatever publication it was which had a full-page photograph of Ronald Reagan in black tie (tuxedo/dinner suit). I'm not making a political comment; both his allies and his opponents reported that the man truly knew how to wear clothes well. It's possible that he was in white tie in that photograph, but I think not.

At any rate, his shoes in the picture were patent leather dress pumps, with bows on the toes. By themselves, the shoes might look effeminate but, with the right attitude, men can wear them with aplomb.

The same attitude causes a man to tell himself, "Yes, I am studly enough to wear a kilt!"

Reagan was the last president to truly wear his clothes with style, no doubt comes from his Holywood days. I am not being political either but I felt almost embarrased for Bush when the Queen last came to visit a few years ago. He had the first white tie occaision of his presidency and he wore a lay down collar shirt (not for sure if pique) and his vest was sticking out about 3 inches past the points of his tailcoat. I would have forgiven oxfords instead of pumps. It might have been fine had it been just a US affair because other guest were similarly violating different parts of the dress. However, with Prince Phillip there who has worn white tie with style for years I just had to cringe.

[longhuntr74]

Well Boys...maybe we should plan a private formal affair after I get back from Afghanistan....see if you can talk me into some slippers and a lacy jabot :-)

[MacLowlife]

Longhuntr,
I used to live down the street from a retired USMC Colonel who stood about 6'4". When he got dressed up in his full kilt rig, he wore the jabot. I remember one night he described driving his big old Pontiac convertible ( license tag: USMC) to the function and pulling up next to someone who couldn't even see his kilt, but registered plenty of amused curiosity at his jabot. The Colonel had no trouble with this. He put his hand under the lace and flipped it out provocatively and winked broadly. The poor guy in the other car had no choice but to sit there until the light changed.

I am actively saving up for a red PC from NorCal Piper's Skye Outfitters. Maybe I will learn how to post pics by the time it gets here.

[longhuntr74]

Mac...amusing as usual. Am I to understand that you have an extensive collection of jackets, doublets, etc? I'll admit...I'd like to!

Incidentally...I saw a Royal Regiment of Scotland Mess Jacket on ebay this morning!! You better act quick!!!

I will probably end up making a tweed conversion or two from some thrift store jackets, but my first real jacket purchase will, more than likely, be a Black Argyll and five button vest and a three button vest. For a formalwear jacket, I would eventually like to get a regulation doublet...they're just soooooooo expensive.

As I'm a military officer, I obviously have my military formal uniform. I actually purchased a mess jacket fairly early in my career....as a first lieutenant. Since I've changed specialties and grown (chest and shoulders, not my gut fortunately), I actually had the need to purchase a new one about 2 years ago. They run about $350-400 each...and that's without the shoulder knots and other accessories. Not cheap, but I can write it off as a professional expense on the taxes. I've always wanted to purchase the white tie accessories to go with it, but, again, I just have NEVER been invited to a white tie affair....I'm very sad about that!!

[MacLowlife]

Thanks, Longhuntr,

We will have to launch a white tie evening for you when you are stateside. We will also make sure you get a little of the civilian waist expansion going, too.

I have been looking for a regulation doublet for months on eBay with no success- they just do not come up.

Better re-think the Pakistani tailoring option while you are over there. You could be a very styling officer, assuming you avoid the, um local hazards!

Thanks for sticking your neck out for the rest of us. Safe Home
MacL