Sept versus Clan

[Scotus]

I guess you know that Kil/Kirkpatrick has it's own crest and I think their own family tartan? That hand held bloody dagger with the motto "I Make Sure" is the story of Roger Kirkpatrick going back in the church to finish off Robert The Bruce's failed assassin John Comyn.

Well, Todd is right. Whatever happened, I doubt murder was in the original plan. If it had been, remember that it was Robert Bruce who wanted to be king of Scotland and Robert Bruce who stabbed the most powerful man in Scotland in a church. John had made peace with King Edward I because all his allies had abandoned the cause. It may be that John Comyn was outraged at the thought of betraying the English king by resuming war against him. Both English and Scottish traditions support the theory that Robert Bruce stabbed the Red Comyn at the high altar of the Franciscan church in Dumfries and his companions are said to have finished him off. As an interesting side note, Robert Comyn, uncle to the Red Comyn, was also killed while defending his nephew. Robert is the direct ancestor of our current chief.

Now, back to our conversation on Kilpatricks.

[Tobus]

Technically the chief's line is descended from a Kilpatrick. Sorry,I know this doesn't answer any of your questions; I guess because there is no satisfactory answer.

I suppose that's as good an answer as there can be. As long as the Colquhouns realize that it's Kilpatrick blood that made them what they are.

I guess you know that Kil/Kirkpatrick has it's own crest and I think their own family tartan?

I have seen the crest and such (my grandfather had it on the wall before he died, and it went to one of my brothers). But I've never seen or heard of a Kilpatrick tartan. That would be very cool if there were one! If you have a reference to one, please share it.

[MacBubba45]

Let's ask the Tartan museum in Franklin, NC (they advertise and participate here). I have a Baxter ancestor (another MacMillian sept in my blood) that had a family tartan. Family tartans generally aren't weaved much unless they can sell, what was I told, 2,000yards? I think it was the Tartan museum at the GMHG one year that gave me a poloroid picture of what it looked like.

[MacBubba45]

I checked a source when I got home and it looks like I was wrong, it didn't list a separate family tartan. It did say Kilpatrick was also a sept of Douglas which hasn't been mentioned yet. That just means there were enough Kilpatricks living in the Clan Douglas area (as well as the western Loch Lomond area for Colquhoun) to make it a sept as well. It's not uncommon.

[Sammac]

Perhaps your line of Kilpatrick's are not decendents of the first Colquhoun's, but a different branch that kept the Kilpatrick name?

[The Wizard of BC]

There is no Tartan listed with the Scottish Tartan Authority under either the name Kilpatrick or Kirkpatrick. Sorry.

[O'Callaghan]

I've no info on the specifics of the Kilpatricks, but "de" is French for "of" or "from", and in the middle ages, before surnames, the practice in England at least, and probably Scotland too, was to use occupations and place names as identifiers.

If someone was referred in old writings as, say, Humphry of Kilpatrick, or Humphry de Kilpatrick, which is just the same thing in French, the most that you can be 100% sure of, was that his name was Humphry and he came from Kilpatrick. This is especially likely when you note that there was a place called Kilpatrick. Eventually it may well have become the surname of some of the people from there, of course, but which ones? Probably not the same family.

At the same time, it was the standard practice for centuries for someone 'elevated' to the peerage to be granted lands, and for them to take the name of those lands. This, of course, was derived from the earlier practice of any Tom, Dick or Harry being identified by the place they were from, in lieu of a surname, but persisted long after formal surnames came into existence for commoners, so that over time it came to indicate a peer and not a commoner.

This practice has evolved further in more recent times, so that now a new lord is expected to choose a place name of their choice for their new title, knowing they won't be granted land anywhere, so they only have to avoid duplicating a title that belongs to someone else, and can pick a place name they like the sound of and/or has some special meaning to them. Some choose the names of particularly distressed working class areas, which I suspect is not only to reflect their left leaning politics, but is also a sort of inside joke.

ETA: For example, Lord Toxteth chose to be named after a depressed inner city area in Liverpool

This produces confusion in interpreting records from the pre-surname period, as for example interpreting Robin of Loxley, a well-known candidate for the possible identity of Robin Hood, if he even existed, as being a peer of the realm, when it more likely just means someone called Robin who came from Loxley.

Bearing in mind what I have said above, and depending on the exact chronology, all that the history that you have read may be telling you is just that someone from Kilpatrick was elevated to the barony of Colquhoun, and that all the people from Kilpatrick that took the place name as a surname are considered to be a sept of Colquhoun, simply through lack of any certainty as to whether they are blood relatives or not!

[TheNaughtyScot]

One thing to remember is that the Colquhoun Clan could have existed as the people that inhabited the Colquhoun territory prior to its official leadership and incorporation. Just because Clan Colquhoun was not recognized prior to Kilpatrick taking leadership officially, does not mean that the people there did not identify themselves as a demographic group. The Colquhouns could have been an unofficial clan or regional group, since you would refer to people from Colquhoun as Colquhouns - like I am from Memphis and I am a Memphian. And the reigning heirs of the Kilpatricks adopted the Colquhoun name as a sign of their leadership, but the other Kilpatricks would retain their name as a sept or branch of the clan.

[beloitpiper]

Kilpatrick simply means "Patrick's church", so Humphry de Kilpatrick was probably named after the church (or parish)that he came from. After being granted Colquhoun lands, they probably changed their last name to better reflect where they came from. So just like Humphry de Kilpatrick was named after his roots, so too your family may be.

[denpat55]

Tobus, I have KilPatrick in my family tree, here is some research done by Dr. Lee Wellington Patrick.

Our Patrick ancestors have been represented in the history of Scotland, Virginia and Kentucky since around 1400. They have been well documented by several reasearchers, the most notable being the late Dr. Lee Wellington Patrick of Fairway, Kansas. Dr. Patrick’s records are the result of his study and research of the Scottish archives and are documented in his book Patrick in Retrospect published in 1993.

The Patricks are most certainly descendants of The MacPhadrick Lamonts of Couston, this family is a cadet family of Clan Lamont, their history is documented in Hector McKechnie’s Book The Lamont Clan 1235-1935. The MacPhadrick lands of about 280 imperial acres are found near the present day town of Couston located on Loch Striven in Cowal adjacent to those of the Lamonts. Clan Lamont is well documented in charters executed with their neighbors the Campbells. The Campbells were noted for their efficient recordkeeping. A vast amount of Clan Lamont history is preserved in the records of Clan Campbell.

There are several variations of the name Patrick, surnames were not fixed or passed from generation to generation as we know them today. A passage in McKechnie’s book points this out. “The first entry in the surviving register of Baptisms (beginning in 1735) is of a son Archibald to Hugh Patrick in Couston, who later appears as Hugh McPhatrick. Other variations are Mcffathrick and Gilpatrick. That same Archibald married in 1736 under the name McGilpharich, and a Hugh Lamont was ferrier at Couston in 1753.”

How little fixed were the clan surnames is brought out by the following letter to an inquirer from the Session Clerk of Inverchaolain in 1830. “As to the sirname [sic] Lamont & Patrick or McPhatrick which is all the same,” it narrates, “ As of the sirname [sic] they go by the two names in common in our parish to this day, and your father’s extract is a plain proof of this fact, the introductory margin of the register bearing the name Lamont while the body bears the name Mcfadrick.”

The early Patricks in Scotland were Catholics. The Patricks became early converts to the Protestant religion and joined the reformers under the Earl of Glencairn, some of them accompanied the expedition to the north of Ireland under Hugh Montmorency of Broadstone, afterwards Viscount of Ardes, who as expressed in his patent from James VI brought a colony of Scots into Clandebara and Ardes, toward the increase of that religion settled in that county where their descendants still possess property near Berry.

My direct Patrick Lineage is as follows:

John Patrick (or Patric): b. 1429 in Ayrshire, Scotland, early records show he was a Notary, a person who could read and write. I have been told by a native of Scotland that a Notary was a papal office of the Catholic Church.
John Patrick: b. 1460 in Ayrshire Scotland
William Patrick: b. 1495 in Ayrshire, Scotland, d. 1549 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Sons: Hew (Hugh), Robert, James, John d. 1638 and Alexander
John Patrick, son of William Patrick, who obtained a grant of the lands of Overmain, near Kilwinning, from the monastery, aquired by charter in 1605, the estate of Byres in Ayrshire and subsequently part of the lands of Dalgarven. He died in 1638 leaving five sons James, Robert, Hew, John and Alexander.

James Patrick: b. 1552, he married Agnes Finley b. 1557
Sons: Thomas, Hugh, John, James, Robert and William
Thomas Kilpatrick: b. 1580

John Kilpatrick: b. 1605, he married Agnes Dockson in 1628, she was b. 1612 d. abt 1669
Sons: James and Robert

Robert Patrick: b. 1635 in Edinburgh, Scotland, he married Susannah Harris
Son: Hugh H.

Hugh H. Patrick: b. 1678 in Edinburgh, Scotland, he married Mary Campbell on November 24, 1704; she was the daughter of Sheriff Walter Campbell, son of Archibald Campbell. Some genealogies show Mary to be the daughter of Sheriff Walter Campbell of Skipness, the Clan Campbell Society of North American has verified that our Mary was not his daughter.
Sons: Robert, Hugh, William and John

Robert Patrick: b. 1705 in Edinburgh, Scotland, he immigrated to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on August 25, 1725 along with brothers Hugh, William and John. He married Elizabeth in 1728 at Cumberland, Pennsylvania. He died in 1758 in Frederick County, Maryland.
Children: James b. 1729, Hugh b. 1732 d. 1814, William b. 1734 d. 1818, John b. 1736, Elizabeth b. 1737, Jeremiah b. 1738