Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[Mael Coluim]

Jock, you have started an interesting thread. I think Matt and Sir William have made well the point; we of Scottish ancestry especially with a surname with a clan tartan will strongly want to wear a kilt with that tartan. It will be our first and most favored.

Second for me and following your train of thought is my XMarks tartan kilt. As beautiful a tartan it is, the affinity I feel for this forum gives me great pride to wear it which is reinforced every time I met a fellow XMarker!

[Nighthawk]

You know... I like this idea. I myself prefer to wear my Colorado state tartan over my clan tartan. I am of MacLeod blood, and take pride in that. However, I am a native to the Rocky Mountains- the Highlands of North America. I also take considerable pride in that. So- I have to ask myself- what's more important to me- distant connections to a clan system that I didn't grow up in, or my home? For me, it's home. Plain and simple.

[Geoff Withnell]

While I have a bit of Scots and Irish blood (and sometimes a bit of Scotch or Irish in my blood), I am primarily of Welsh heritage. I don't have any of the "Welsh" tartans, since I have no real connection to any particular location in Wales, nor to any family which has a tartan. I am working with my nephew to come up with a Withnell Family tartan. We plan to get enough run off for around 10 kilts when we are satisfied with the design. I have a number of kilts at present. I have my best kilt a 16 0z box pleat in Leatherneck (when someone asks my clan, I reply "USMC!"). A less expensive Leatherneck in acrylic for knocking around, a number of fashion type tartans, some solid color contempories and and inexpensive Black Watch. I have some regimental weight Black Watch material, some of which will be my second box pleat kilt. With my own military association, I feel a certain affinity with the Black Watch tartan.

What's the point of all this? Well, while I wear a kilt for various reasons, including comfort and appearance, I am very aware when kilted of the associations with Scottish history. I don't think I would be comfortable in a clan tartan with which I had no connection. I hope that the kilt will become a part of general Celtic heritage, with the clan tartans remaining distinctively Scottish.

How do I fee about non-Celts in kilts? Go for it! As long as a certain level of respect is observed.

Just my two cents worth.

Geoff Withnell

[Red Stag]

I have my mother's last name; it is Carty, and it has no tartan. As far as I can tell my surname used to have a "Mc" in front of it; there is no McCarty tartan. I have read that the McCarty used to be McCarthy. There is a McCarthy tartan designed pre-2000 by unknown. Can I wear that tartan? Who the heck would I ask? Should I design my own tartan for my variation of the surname? What about DNA deciding who wears a family tartan? I can tell you now that there are surname projects at Family Tree DNA that have people of the same surname but that are in different haplogroups thus suggesting that they are not related in a genealogical time frame (within 1000 years). Obviously my surname doesn't match my DNA. My haplotype is similar to people in Frisia. I'll be darned if I knew who the Frisian was in the family. I can't trace my paternal side back farther than my grandfather and we thought that he was full-blooded Indian(Mohawk/Ojibwe mix). Traditional paper genealogy can be wrong but some people will never know because they won't do a DNA test. People don't want to find out that they may be the milk man's baby; some people even get upset if it happened 150 years ago. Some current Celtic people may be the descendants of Norse or Frisian invaders and not know it. Do they give up their tartans if a DNA test prooves they aren't truly of a particular surname? Perhaps I should create the first DNA haplotype tartan. Only people with a haplotype similar to mine, regardless of surname, shall be allowed to wear it. What do ya think?

[joecool]

Excellent thread! I suppose my question is, "Will Scots still be wearing their clan tartans 100 years in the future? What about 200 years? 300 years?" The interesting thing about cultures is their propensity to change through time. Each new generation takes a little bit of the old and mixes it with the new. Many people choose to wear a tartan kilt to honor a connection that they have somewhere in their ancestry. I became interested in the kilt because of my late grandfather whose mother was Scottish. Obviously I am not a Scot, I am an American, so my dilemma becomes which tartan do I want to wear? I have several tartan kilts (all of them are universal type tartans,) but what clan tartan should I wear? For me, the answer is simple. My clan is all of my kilted brothers and sisters here on this forum, so my tartan is the XMTS tartan. As soon as I can afford it, I will purchase a kilt in this tartan to proudly display my "clan" affiliation.
So yes Jock, I think you are right that new tartans will be worn by the new generations. New non-Scottish "clans" are formed every day, and I am certain that there will always be kilts made out of those tartans for people to show their affiliation!

[Macman]

Jock, you have started an interesting thread. I think Matt and Sir William have made well the point; we of Scottish ancestry especially with a surname with a clan tartan will strongly want to wear a kilt with that tartan. It will be our first and most favored.

My feelings are similar to Mael Coluim's. My first kilts were in my surname's clan tartans. When I wanted to get more kilts (thanks to being on XMTS), I went to the Maple Leaf and my provincial tartan. Still, my tie to my clan feels stronger. How my progeny will choose, I don't know; I'll be happy if they at least wear the kilt!

[Dall_Piobaire]

Good thread, and well made point Jock.

The interesting bit is that perhaps it is really all a mountain made of a mole hill.

Don't get me wrong, I wear only the Modern Boyd, or the Ancient Stewart as those are my lines from my mother's side. I might consider the new Ayershire tartan, but again, because of connections. I wear them out of a feeling of pride, and a desire to connect and associate myself that which is part of me. In doing this though, am I actually not mistaken? Modern Boyd was approved in the late 50's. Traditionally and perhaps most accurately, I should wear whatever was being woven at the time by the weaver in the district???
However, we make this great fuss over a thing I think would greatly confuse the original wearer. It seems maybe as though six hundred years from now there will be forums over whether to wear Levi's or lee's, and how and when to wear them.
I mean, we all know about Wilson's and traditions and romanticizing, so nothing need really be repeated there. My point, and perhaps more to the point is, that the kilt has been, and is making those evolutionary changes, just, in a way very slowly.
Whether or not, if ever, it will stop being, primarily,symbolic, rightly or wrongly, not if this forum and the folks here carry on.

JHMO
Scott

[Inchessi]

GREAT! Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

... I really hope that the kilt wearers of the future, with distant, or non Scots connections, will move on to new tartans and leave the clan tartans to the Scots. Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Could you clarify your intentions here? I am not certain what the statement suggest? If you are from Scotland, you can wear a clan kilt. If your heritage is Scottish, then you can't wear a clan tartan? Is there a limited generational multiplier in which a man can wear his clan tartan?
Father=yes,
grandfather=yes,
great grandfather= No.

[Jock Scot]

Could you clarify your intentions here? I am not certain what the statement suggest? If you are from Scotland, you can wear a clan kilt. If your heritage is Scottish, then you can't wear a clan tartan? Is there a limited generational multiplier in which a man can wear his clan tartan? Father=yes, grandfather=yes, great grandfather= No.

The question is for non scots really, but this is an open question for all to give opinions on. So lets imagine you are say, a Russian and you may or may not have Scots ancestry and at this moment in time you are wearing a "MacOnion" tartan kilt. Yes? What I am wondering ,assuming the kilt is being worn in say a hundred years time, is what kind of tartan your, as yet unborn, successors will be wearing? Maybe a Russian tartan, maybe a Russian university tartan, maybe a Russian Air force tartan, INSTEAD of the Scots "MacOnion" tartan of today. Just crystal ball gazing, that is all and I was wondering if the need to wear Scots tartans, by non Scots, will dilute over the years.

[Jock Scot]

Ooooops double post.Now deleted.