traditional vs. classic

[MacLowlife]

I think this is a great example of words that seem to mean a lot, but may not mean much. Granted, TRADITIONAL means made (or styled) after a tradition, i.e., the way it has been done. Classic, though, can mean just about anything. If you like to wear the kilt in a traditional way, ( or for that matter, modern men's Saxon clothing ) you probably have a fairly good idea of a "canon" of items and looks that fit into your notion of traditional. However, someone might come along with an item that is not within that canon and will refer to it as "classic" as in "A classic Nehru jacket" or "A classic bell bottomed disco suit" or even "a classic white rabbit sporran". Can we argue about whether or not the item is "classic"? Sure. Will we get anywhere? Probably not.

Classical refers to the glories of ancient Rome and Greece, as exemplified by columns, etc. Classic is what they call Coca -Cola with vanilla in it, as oopsed to the old "New" Coke.

This kind of wondering has led to the people on another forum having acronyms such as TNSIL, which means "Traditional Natural Shoulder Ivy League" since someone already pointed out that padded shoulders are just as traditional in their own neighborhood as the natural shoulder models are in theirs.

I was surprised to learn how new this particular forum is- It would appear the Traditional forum was created in February 2004, while some part of XMarks dates back to 2003. That was before my time and I would be pleased to hear from my elders. You can search back, though, to the earliest posts in this forum, which is pretty cool.

But I was distracted for a minute, there. While we are throwing around terms like classic and traditional, I would like to suggest that we bear in mind that things like style and fashion do evolve. Military uniforms have changed. Western formal wear has changed. Business suits have changed, even riding clothes have changed-whatever you ride.* If you are familiar with these various kinds of dress, you may have more refined ideas about them than a person who is outside looking in. Sure, you can have your 3 piece suit tailored exactly like your grandfather's, but chances are, if you go to Brooks Brothers or a Savile Row tailor, when you ask for a "traditional" suit, it will be subtly different from the one you would have gotten even 50 years ago.

You don't see people talking about lapel width much here, or collar size, or tie width. Now and then, someone will notice how wide kilt belts are getting, but that is about it. Yet those things are always slowly changing and, yes, so are various aspects of the "traditional" way to wear a kilt. It is a fine thing to hearken back to MacLeay's watercolors, or to 18th century clan chief portraits, or even to great photographs of various kilt-wearing luminaries through time, but to pattern one's kilt kit after the way it was worn 150 years ago is more historical than traditional, in my humble low-rent opinion.

Saxon men wore bell-bottomed trousers in the 1920s throughout much of the western world . And they wore them in the 1970s. And I am sure some guy is wearing them right now. Are they traditional? Not especially. You might argue that they are traditional for sailors, but when is the last time any government issued them to their navy?

Drawing a line in the sand and saying "here is the tradition- what came before was premature and what came after was wrong" is inviting frustration, if not ridicule. I agree with the wise poster who pointed out that there is nothing much traditional about "Jacobite" shirts, for instance, though a person who has worn tee shirts all of his or her life might be excused for thinking they are historical.

I have run on long enough. * Ever since they stopped breeding mammoths, I have had to make do with a horse. Time to go perm his hair for that traditional look.

[creagdhubh]

What a great picture. I like this look. I'd prefer a bit more sag in the plaid across the chest and less hanging down in front, but in general, this looks great to me. Function and style. The bottom of the kilt looks interesting also. Appears to be a solid with a design along the bottom. Very unique photo. Thanks for posting.

Wow, I love the way you think! Your Highland attire looks absolutely amazing and is very much like my own style. I agree with everything you have said. I am very much a traditionalist and despise the utilikilts, leather kilts, kilts that match pinstripe suit blazers, etc. I think there is a lot of rubbish out there in terms of what lads are wearing. The worst thing thaat someone could do is to take Highland dress and completely ruin it by making it 'too' modern. Now what do I mean by that? Of course we live in a modern world, and people have their own likes and dislikes when it comes to wearing the Garb of the old Gaul. I have no problem with personal views of how someone chooses to wear Highland dress, however, I do feel that there are so many better representations and styles available, veruses what some people are wearing these days. I like how you did your research, expecially looking at Macleay's 'Highlanders of Scotland.' Yes, these are prints from the 19-century, however they are wonderful representations of Highland dress-more specifcally for evening or formal wear inspiration. Now, of course I wouldnt show up to a ball with flintlock pistols, a broadsword, and a targe slung on my back, yet everything else looks absolutely fabulous! The tartan waistcoats, the ornate hair sporrans (sporan molach), the dirks, the variations in doublets, the bonnets with plant badges, everything looks great!

I am also a firm supporter of looking at how your clan chief dresses. Not all clans have current chiefs, and some may be female, however my clan chief, Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, whom my wife and I have had the pleasure of meeting many times and have been to his lovely home, Newton Castle in Blairgowrie, Perthshire many times as well, is a perfect example of traditional Highland attire. He tends to wear check shirts of varying colors, with regimental stripe neckties, or country ties made of wool with ducks or grouse patterns on them, tweed jackets of varying tweeds or in the plain colors with our without a waistcoat for daywear. He loves to wear his Scottish wildcat sporran, which of course is suitable for any type of formality, and for his evening attire he prefers the regulation doublet with an old hair sporran that his father and former Macpherson chiefs passed down to him-complete with buckle brogues and argyll hose to match his dress Macpherson kilt. Now of course, every person will have their own style and preferences on how to wear their Highland attire, I am not saying that is wrong. There is many degrees of latitude with how one puts together their ensemble and I love to see the different fashions, however, I do believe that there are many lads out there that just haven't discovered those latitudes. ?Look at how HRH Prince Charles wears his attire, look at P/M Gordon Walker, look at Macleay's book, 'The Highlanders of Scotland,' look at old photos of Highlanders from the nineteenth century and into the twentieth century. Many of these old photos and works of art can inspire, motivate, and give a plethora of knowledge to those lads who are eager for more! I love it!!!

[creagdhubh]

Great questions! Because I've discovered that over the years, as my sources have broadened, I've had to reevaluate some of my concepts.

My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

At that time 'casual kilts' and all the neo-Celtic and neo-Culloden etc etc stuff didn't exist and the 'traditional' modes of Highland Dress held sway: Day Dress, Evening Dress, and military-style dress each with its proprietary shoes, hose, sporran, jacket, and headgear. It just didn't do to mix things up!

I followed suit and had several Highland Dress outfits which respected those traditional modes:





I got really into Highland Dress and got every book I could on the subject including such classics as Old Irish and Highland Dress etc.

Then... all of my preconceptions about the "right" and the "wrong" about Highland Dress were blown away when I got a copy of The Highlanders of Scotland, fifty-odd extremely detailed portraits of men in Highland Dress painted in the 1860's. Highland Dress had so much more vitality, variety, and plasticity then! How dull and monollithic our modern dress looks by comparison!



More recently I've begun collecting a large number of vintage (c1860 to c1930) photos of men in Highland Dress. These, combined with The Highlanders of Scotland, made me realise that the set-in-stone Modes of Highland Dress that I came to know in the 1970's didn't really exist until, it seems, after WWI.







In the end my current "eye" for what's traditional/classic is formed by those four influences: "tradtitional Highland Dress" as it was known in the 1970's, books on the history of Highland Dress, The Highlanders of Scotland, and vintage photos.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU AND FEEL EACTLY THE SAME WAY!!! I too have a copy of Macleay's 'The Highlanders of Scotland,' and am meticulous when it comes to reserach and what I purchase for my Highland dress wardrobe. I am currently in the process of purchasing tweed argyll jackets that have horizontal and vertical lines of color, as well as estate style tweed jackets to mix and match with my many tattersall shirts and regimental neckties. It's so much fun!

[Riverkilt]

I also enjoy the old pics and paintings. And, I enjoy the cutting edge sometimes.

From looking at the old pics and old paintings methinks perhaps folks just dressed in what felt right to them at the time. Without the Internet, phones, or television it for sure would have been more difficult to consult any fashion experts of the time or for any fashion experts to expound on their opinions.

And, I'm guessing the women in their lives had a lot to do with sewing up their garments and telling them how to dress too.

Freedom is fun!

[HeathBar]

Traditional vs. Classic

What I see as traditional are the materials used in the making of kilts, jackets, etc...
What I see as classic is the style in which these garments are made.

100% worsted wool in a tartan is what is traditional for kilts. The 8yd, hand stitched, knife pleated kilt will always be classic style of kilt. Sure its not as old as other styles, but in its 150 odd year existance it has become the "standard". And I think that is what makes it classic.

For daywear jackets and waistcoats, tweed or other rough textured wools is traditional. The two button jacket with gauntlet cuffs and a five button waistcoat is classic.

For evening wear, fine woolens or velvet is traditional. The Regulation, Montrose, Kenmore, and Sherrifmuir are classic. Sorry, I just don't see the Argyll or PC as classic.

Frankly, when it comes to evening dress here in the US, most folks look like they stepped out of a Celtic Croft or Scottish Lion catalog. I think if we were to attend a ball in the Highlands, we would truely see what is traditional and classic.

[CMcG]

<snip>
My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

<snip>

Frankly, when it comes to evening dress here in the US, most folks look like they stepped out of a Celtic Croft or Scottish Lion catalog. I think if we were to attend a ball in the Highlands, we would truely see what is traditional and classic.

This brings up an interesting issue, which is the influence of retailers and rentals on the perception of tradition...

[Semiomniscient]

This brings up an interesting issue, which is the influence of retailers and rentals on the perception of tradition...

Well since most of us depend on companies selling these wares and not professional tailors making our clothes to our specifications--we end up with what's available. And until there is a strong demand for otherwise, we won't see it much in catalogs.

For instance, I wear two evening jackets (Argyle): one is burgundy, the other is blue (and I don't mean navy blue). Every one else wears black (except for one gentleman who occasionally wears a dark bottle green). I got mine on ebay from different sellers from Scotland. One was a private seller, the other was a rental/hire business who were clearing stock. They're all traditional and classic though.

I don't think that so-called "kilt shirts" are traditional or classic. But they are discussed in this forum... They are generally accepted by the kilted-masses for daywear and eventually may be looked upon as "classic" daywear. (With fewer and fewer men wearing ties and the general "deformalizing" of society, this is a possibility.) But they certainly can never be looked upon as traditional. So... can they ever be seen as classic?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well since most of us depend on companies selling these wares and not professional tailors making our clothes to our specifications--we end up with what's available. And until there is a strong demand for otherwise, we won't see it much in catalogs.

Fifty years ago or so most companies offered a nearly bewildering array of highland attire. I've a Frasier Ross catalog on my desk and it shows five different styles of evening wear jacket-- today you are lucky to find a shop offering much more than a Prince Charlie coatee. The same catalogue offers fourteen different sporrans, seven of which are civilian horsehair sporrans. In addition to a wide variety of self-coloured hose (none of which were white, off-white, ecru, or creme) they offered their customers five different styles of "dress hose" ranging from a simple "check top hose" to full tartan as well as diced hose.

So what happened? Why don't stores offer the selection they once did?

Probably because most of their customers are too cheap to buy quality products. The few Highland outfitters that do offer a good selection-- stores like Kinloch Anderson, or MacKenzie Frain-- survive only because discerning customers seek them out. The few firms that continue to offer bespoke tailoring-- such as Stewart Christie-- offer their services at prices that would give the average "Mr. Geoffrey" customer a nose bleed, and would produce cardiac arrest in one of the Gold Brothers shops.

The bottom line, in my estimation, is that frankly, my dear, most folks don't give a damn about how they look, and are totally focused on price. It really comes down to the polar opposites of PRIDE and SHAME:

PRIDE = Perfect Results In Dressing Elegantly

while

SHAME = Sustained Half Arsed Minimal Efforts.

[Jock Scot]

My guidance came from one kilt wearing father, six kilt wearing uncles, and a kilt wearing grandfather and the kilt wearing experiance goes back further than that too. Plus, over 60 years of kilt wearing for me.

[MacLowlife]

CMcG, You wonder where it comes from, this sense of how things ought to be? I wish I had Jock's early experience of living around kilted gentlemen, but I haven't. I believe we bring with us to the kilt wearing world the same sensibilities we have otherwise. For me, that is a grounding in traditional clothing coming from observation and a couple of stints in the clothing business. You can learn a lot by looking, though it seems to me you mostly reinforce what you already know and like- until you see that knowledge and taste fall short or go amiss.

Where we really begin to grow, though, is when we can look at something popular and say " I can do better than that."

I started with Thompson's book, too, and I still look at it from time to time. I wonder what he would say about the changes in the marketplace in the past five or ten years.

I would be more worried about the PC if it were really bad, instead of just ubiquitous. When made well, it is a nice garment and nothing to be ashamed of. If you look at Saxon formal wear styles from the last 50 years or so, there are worse things to be dressed up in, far far worse. In truth, I can think of occasions where a "full dress Argyll" is probably far less acceptable.

For most of us, the internet came into our lives after we were adults. It is a wonderful tool, but it is just the icing on the cake of other experience. After a while, you learn to filter it, like everything else.

I have something else up my sleeve that I am eager to show, but not just yet...