traditional vs. classic

[Semiomniscient]

This brings up an interesting issue, which is the influence of retailers and rentals on the perception of tradition...

Well since most of us depend on companies selling these wares and not professional tailors making our clothes to our specifications--we end up with what's available. And until there is a strong demand for otherwise, we won't see it much in catalogs.

For instance, I wear two evening jackets (Argyle): one is burgundy, the other is blue (and I don't mean navy blue). Every one else wears black (except for one gentleman who occasionally wears a dark bottle green). I got mine on ebay from different sellers from Scotland. One was a private seller, the other was a rental/hire business who were clearing stock. They're all traditional and classic though.

I don't think that so-called "kilt shirts" are traditional or classic. But they are discussed in this forum... They are generally accepted by the kilted-masses for daywear and eventually may be looked upon as "classic" daywear. (With fewer and fewer men wearing ties and the general "deformalizing" of society, this is a possibility.) But they certainly can never be looked upon as traditional. So... can they ever be seen as classic?

[MacLowlife]

I think this is a great example of words that seem to mean a lot, but may not mean much. Granted, TRADITIONAL means made (or styled) after a tradition, i.e., the way it has been done. Classic, though, can mean just about anything. If you like to wear the kilt in a traditional way, ( or for that matter, modern men's Saxon clothing ) you probably have a fairly good idea of a "canon" of items and looks that fit into your notion of traditional. However, someone might come along with an item that is not within that canon and will refer to it as "classic" as in "A classic Nehru jacket" or "A classic bell bottomed disco suit" or even "a classic white rabbit sporran". Can we argue about whether or not the item is "classic"? Sure. Will we get anywhere? Probably not.

Classical refers to the glories of ancient Rome and Greece, as exemplified by columns, etc. Classic is what they call Coca -Cola with vanilla in it, as oopsed to the old "New" Coke.

This kind of wondering has led to the people on another forum having acronyms such as TNSIL, which means "Traditional Natural Shoulder Ivy League" since someone already pointed out that padded shoulders are just as traditional in their own neighborhood as the natural shoulder models are in theirs.

I was surprised to learn how new this particular forum is- It would appear the Traditional forum was created in February 2004, while some part of XMarks dates back to 2003. That was before my time and I would be pleased to hear from my elders. You can search back, though, to the earliest posts in this forum, which is pretty cool.

But I was distracted for a minute, there. While we are throwing around terms like classic and traditional, I would like to suggest that we bear in mind that things like style and fashion do evolve. Military uniforms have changed. Western formal wear has changed. Business suits have changed, even riding clothes have changed-whatever you ride.* If you are familiar with these various kinds of dress, you may have more refined ideas about them than a person who is outside looking in. Sure, you can have your 3 piece suit tailored exactly like your grandfather's, but chances are, if you go to Brooks Brothers or a Savile Row tailor, when you ask for a "traditional" suit, it will be subtly different from the one you would have gotten even 50 years ago.

You don't see people talking about lapel width much here, or collar size, or tie width. Now and then, someone will notice how wide kilt belts are getting, but that is about it. Yet those things are always slowly changing and, yes, so are various aspects of the "traditional" way to wear a kilt. It is a fine thing to hearken back to MacLeay's watercolors, or to 18th century clan chief portraits, or even to great photographs of various kilt-wearing luminaries through time, but to pattern one's kilt kit after the way it was worn 150 years ago is more historical than traditional, in my humble low-rent opinion.

Saxon men wore bell-bottomed trousers in the 1920s throughout much of the western world . And they wore them in the 1970s. And I am sure some guy is wearing them right now. Are they traditional? Not especially. You might argue that they are traditional for sailors, but when is the last time any government issued them to their navy?

Drawing a line in the sand and saying "here is the tradition- what came before was premature and what came after was wrong" is inviting frustration, if not ridicule. I agree with the wise poster who pointed out that there is nothing much traditional about "Jacobite" shirts, for instance, though a person who has worn tee shirts all of his or her life might be excused for thinking they are historical.

I have run on long enough. * Ever since they stopped breeding mammoths, I have had to make do with a horse. Time to go perm his hair for that traditional look.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well since most of us depend on companies selling these wares and not professional tailors making our clothes to our specifications--we end up with what's available. And until there is a strong demand for otherwise, we won't see it much in catalogs.

Fifty years ago or so most companies offered a nearly bewildering array of highland attire. I've a Frasier Ross catalog on my desk and it shows five different styles of evening wear jacket-- today you are lucky to find a shop offering much more than a Prince Charlie coatee. The same catalogue offers fourteen different sporrans, seven of which are civilian horsehair sporrans. In addition to a wide variety of self-coloured hose (none of which were white, off-white, ecru, or creme) they offered their customers five different styles of "dress hose" ranging from a simple "check top hose" to full tartan as well as diced hose.

So what happened? Why don't stores offer the selection they once did?

Probably because most of their customers are too cheap to buy quality products. The few Highland outfitters that do offer a good selection-- stores like Kinloch Anderson, or MacKenzie Frain-- survive only because discerning customers seek them out. The few firms that continue to offer bespoke tailoring-- such as Stewart Christie-- offer their services at prices that would give the average "Mr. Geoffrey" customer a nose bleed, and would produce cardiac arrest in one of the Gold Brothers shops.

The bottom line, in my estimation, is that frankly, my dear, most folks don't give a damn about how they look, and are totally focused on price. It really comes down to the polar opposites of PRIDE and SHAME:

PRIDE = Perfect Results In Dressing Elegantly

while

SHAME = Sustained Half Arsed Minimal Efforts.

[JSFMACLJR]

[QUOTE=Panache;847482Tartan doublets, while very sharp, very bold, and very cool, are traditional but not classic. They are too far from what the mainstream considers "The Look" for Highland attire. [/QUOTE]

I beg to differ, Jamie. I would have to say that tartan doublets are indeed "classic." They have stood the test of time. They are worn by the cognizanti. They are not faddish. They are (generally) bespoke.

Why should we take into consideration what the "mainstream" considers to be proper Highland attire? That surely is dumbing things down to the least common denominator, and what is left is a milquetoast wishing to offend no one and fit into the crowd. That I would not call classic.

As aye,
Sandy

[OC Richard]

Fifty years ago or so most companies offered a nearly bewildering array of highland attire. I've a Frasier Ross catalog on my desk and it shows five different styles of evening wear jacket-- today you are lucky to find a shop offering much more than a Prince Charlie coatee.

So true! When I first got into Highland Dress in the 1970's that first catalogue had a number of different Evening Dress jackets, the Prince Charlie being only one of several. I recall attending formal events in the late 70's and early 80's and seeing all of those being worn. And, these jackets were worn with plaids, dirks, tartan hose, and buckled brogues in the main. My own look was a claret velvet Montrose doublet (which I don't seem to have a photo of).

Nowadays everyone is in Prince Charlies with white hose. Ugghhhh...

I wonder it the Kilt Hire industry has had anything to do with this? Certainly the Prince Charlie has become a mass-produced item in Scotland and since you can get Prince Charlies off-the-peg fairly cheaply (and ex-hire ones even more cheaply) it's easy to see why most men go with them.

[Panache]

MoR,

If you take a broader view of all men's Western fashion (from the 1960's onward) I should think that the trend has been toward simpler, more casual, and more standardized garb for men. Generally thinking men are supposed to look good without really standing out in their clothes. In my life most of the fellows I know wear things that blend in with what everyone else is wearing and "dress up" only when required to. Being "Dressed up" is not something they enjoy on the whole and Heaven forbid they might look like they spend too much time or effort on their appearance.

Why even here on the Internet (though not on XMTS) among people that enjoy kilts and highland attire I have been mocked as a fop by some. Why? Because if you stand out too much in your manner of dress, well then it must mean that you are effeminate,a sissy, or some other such nonsense.

For many who don the kilt, the simple act of putting on a skirt and wearing it out in public is a pretty risky thing. They don't want to stand out anymore than that! Therefore options for individuality disappear and highland formal wear becomes something of a uniform. Now I do think that most fellows do enjoy their highland finery when they don their Prince Charlie Coatee and such, but they are also reassured that it is a "safe" look. This is to say that they know that they will fit in with what everyone else is wearing. For a lot of men, no matter what the type of dress that is all they want of their attire.

I'm sure price has its place in the equation as well, but I think that the general shift in fashion away from anything that makes a fellow stand out in the crowd has more to do with it.

Cheers

Jamie

Order of the Dandelion, Order of the Gin and Tonic, Order of the Tartan Peacock

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

MoR,

Generally thinking men are supposed to look good without really standing out in their clothes.

Absolutely-- that's why dressing like a burlesque comic is to be avoided at all costs. Conservative dress in style and colour is always the best way to go.

In my life most of the fellows I know wear things that blend in with what everyone else is wearing and "dress up" only when required to. Being "Dressed up" is not something they enjoy on the whole and Heaven forbid they might look like they spend too much time or effort on their appearance.

I think there is a difference between sloppy and casual dressing, and that those who are sloppy dressers are just plain lazy. Since it takes no more physical effort to put on a polo shirt than a tee shirt, or to put on coloured socks than white socks, or to draw on slacks rather than sweat pants, the only two possible excuses for not being casually well-dressed are ignorance or laziness. The same applies to when one dons a collar and tie...

For many who don the kilt, the simple act of putting on a skirt and wearing it out in public is a pretty risky thing. They don't want to stand out anymore than that! Therefore options for individuality disappear and highland formal wear becomes something of a uniform. Now I do think that most fellows do enjoy their highland finery when they don their Prince Charlie Coatee and such, but they are also reassured that it is a "safe" look. This is to say that they know that they will fit in with what everyone else is wearing. For a lot of men, no matter what the type of dress that is all they want of their attire.

I'm sure price has its place in the equation as well, but I think that the general shift in fashion away from anything that makes a fellow stand out in the crowd has more to do with it.

Cheers

Jamie

Order of the Dandelion, Order of the Gin and Tonic, Order of the Tartan Peacock

Jamie,

Choosing a Prince Charlie coatee over a dress Argyll, or any doublet, isn't done for reasons of sartorial safety-- to "blend in"-- it is done because the first time buyer inevitably has virtually zero options, other than (possibly) a choice of colours. It's like living in China in the 1960s-- "does sir want a grey, or gray, Mao jacket?" Of course no one stands out, they don't have the option to stand out, they have no choice to stand out, because they have little or no choice in what's on offer.

If you were to attend the annual tartan ball of the St. Andrew's Society of Washington DC dressed in your finest evening attire you wouldn't stand out, you'd blend in with all the other well-dressed gentlemen who would be wearing everything from the ubiquitously boring Prince Charlie coatee to bespoke velvet doublets that would cause Sandy to swoon. You would also be discretely approached by gentlemen in "Price" Charlie coatees quietly asking for an introduction to your tailor.

Yours in foppery and a well cut sleeve...

Scott

[CMcG]

It seems then that supply and demand in regards to sales and rentals of Highland wear have had a flattening effect on options. Part of this too probably has to do with what Riverkilt wrote about a lack of sewing being done at home. People rely increasingly on retailers, and less frequently on tailors, for things they don't have the time or knowledge to make themselves.

I imagine the situation also has something to do with information though; the unfortunate newbie who wishes to be kilted, but hasn't discovered resources like Xmarks, doesn't know that there are other options than a PC and white hose...

Before Xmarks, I learned a bit from my dad, who learned a few things from playing in a pipe band as a youth. I also gleaned small pieces of advice from an aunt with a more cultivated relationship to Scottish heritage than the rest of the Canadianized family. From the internet, I found much more information from sources like Matt Newsome and eventually XMTS but I've also had to parse through the advertisements from retailers and rentals. I then got my hands on Thompson's book and looked at lots of pictures online because I don't have much of a family, association, piping, or local tradition and no military background to draw on... I'm still learning and trying to sort through such a great variety of positions and approaches!

This brings me back to curiosity about where other members of the rabble, especially the aficionados of Highland apparel and style, know their stuff from? Inherited tradition or cultivated sense of classic?

[Jock Scot]

My guidance came from one kilt wearing father, six kilt wearing uncles, and a kilt wearing grandfather and the kilt wearing experiance goes back further than that too. Plus, over 60 years of kilt wearing for me.

[MacLowlife]

CMcG, You wonder where it comes from, this sense of how things ought to be? I wish I had Jock's early experience of living around kilted gentlemen, but I haven't. I believe we bring with us to the kilt wearing world the same sensibilities we have otherwise. For me, that is a grounding in traditional clothing coming from observation and a couple of stints in the clothing business. You can learn a lot by looking, though it seems to me you mostly reinforce what you already know and like- until you see that knowledge and taste fall short or go amiss.

Where we really begin to grow, though, is when we can look at something popular and say " I can do better than that."

I started with Thompson's book, too, and I still look at it from time to time. I wonder what he would say about the changes in the marketplace in the past five or ten years.

I would be more worried about the PC if it were really bad, instead of just ubiquitous. When made well, it is a nice garment and nothing to be ashamed of. If you look at Saxon formal wear styles from the last 50 years or so, there are worse things to be dressed up in, far far worse. In truth, I can think of occasions where a "full dress Argyll" is probably far less acceptable.

For most of us, the internet came into our lives after we were adults. It is a wonderful tool, but it is just the icing on the cake of other experience. After a while, you learn to filter it, like everything else.

I have something else up my sleeve that I am eager to show, but not just yet...