Tradition?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Since this is about the "traditions" that go hand in hand with wearing the kilt, and not a polemic on the socio-economics of kilt wearers, or the rights of minority groups, I will address that question you have raised that is on topic:

Who benefits when tradition dictates the color of one's shoes or sporran or by being told what to wear for every occasion?

The beneficiary is that individual who may be unaware of the customary mode of attire associated with wearing the kilt on a specific occasion, but none-the-less does not wish to appear ignorant in front of his peers.

[Chas]

Traditions are not bad, but I cannot agree with that they only exist when they benefit the majority. Who else are they for - the minority - every minority. Humans would never do that. When the benefit stops so does the tradition. From one day to the next sometimes. No one ever said that traditions were to be immutable, for ever and ever, world without end, Amen.

Who benefits when tradition dictates the color of one's shoes or sporran or by being told what to wear for every occasion? The benefit comes from belonging to that group of people who wear that colour of shoes on that type of occasion. If you want to be part of that group, you do what that group does. Families have many traditions that individuals may not like, but they put up with them rather than leave the family. Every day millions of men, worldwide wear a piece of clothing to show their allegiance to a particular sporting team. Millions of Sikh men wear a turban in the colours of their political party. The benefit to all these people is the 'belonging', being part of a greater entity. Maybe the people who make and sell shoes, or maybe the socioeconomic class can afford the prescribed fashions and thus function on a higher social plain than those who cannot. Cobblers and shoe-sellers will make or sell shoes for which there is a market. A good example which is pertinent to our interest is buckle brogues. The major manufacturer in the UK was in Birmingham, a company called 'Kilties'. As the tradition of wearing kilts waned in post-war Britain, so did the wearing of buckle brogues. They stopped manufacture in the mid 70's. There was no benefit to them, so they stopped making them.

Are we handcrafted by the traditions that were in place since the day we were born? Many social traditions that limited the rights of minorities were happily embraced when I was a child have been largely, and I think, rightfully, rejected. But of course! As the benefit to the majority changes so will the tradition. In this case the benefit might be having a clear conscience.

Traditions can provide a guideline for how we live our lives, but I think each of us has the right, and even, a responsibility to reject some traditions that for whatever reason, we find unacceptable. That's all very well as far as it goes. If a person wants to belong to a certain group, or set, or club, or society, or society in general one has to adopt the mores and traditions of that group. One doesn't have the right to pick and choose. The best example is X Marks The Scot itself. We have a set of rules called the Forum Rules.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/view.php?pg=forumrules
Anyone joining us and those who are already members agree to abide by these rules. No one has the right to ignore a rule because they find it unacceptable.

The American poet, Ralph Waldo Emerson, expressed it better than I do:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

I know of only one quote that will fit; it comes from my Mother; she's 91 this year.

"If you don't like the way we're rowing this boat - get out of the boat. Oh - mind the sharks."

In all of this, no one has mentioned improvement. If a tradition is legally,morally or ethically wrong, then of course it needs to be changed.

For something better.

But if the tradition does no harm and there is a perceived benefit to those practising it, why should it be changed?

Here in Europe, we have traditions that go back, in some cases a thousand years. We are not so quick to give them up or even contemplate it.

Regards

Chas

[CMcG]

<snip> when does something become traditional?

The definition of the word from the Latin is to hand over or pass on but it would be interesting to find out what xmarkers think about kilt tradition.

One could say, for example, that since Irish Pipe bands have been wearing saffron kilt since the beginning of the 1900s or so, that perhaps this could now be regarded as traditional. Yes, I know that not all Irish bands wear saffron, I'm using this as an example.

The Random House dictionary (via dictionary.com) says:
"tra·di·tion   [truh-dish-uhn]
–noun
1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition."

In a stricter sense than, something becomes a tradition when it is adopted as a custom and endures long enough to be passed down to future generations.

And in a more open sense, something becomes a tradition as soon as it is adopted as an ongoing pattern.

In either case, the wearing of kilts (particularly solid saffron or green ones) by the Irish could certainly be regarded as traditional. If a generation is approximately 30 years, then the origins of Irish kilt wearing go back at least three generations.

The Irish kilt tradition is not as well established as that of the Scottish tradition from which it is derived, but I argue it is a tradition nonetheless. Especially amongst Irish pipe bands and the Irish diaspora.

[DamnthePants]

Yes, I guess you are right, we cannot escape that we were raised by some form of tradition. My main point it we should not blindly assume that the way we were raised, or the way things are done are the right way, or the best way. We must be willing to dare, for if no one dared to go against tradition, we would not have progress.

Don’t worry, I didn’t expect my views to be accepted by everyone, or in fact everyone. The way I see things is only applicable to me. I can understand how you would see my views as wrong. As a person I am Solipsistic and self-centered. Though I respect everything in the world, I also hold nothing as sacred.

Though this will really insult people, I say it with no shame. If I so feel; I will take anyone’s cultural uniqueness and co-opt it into my own should I think it cool, interesting, or otherwise better then something I already have. Just as I will drop and kick to the curb anything about MY cultural uniqueness should I one day decide it to be of no use or something better comes along.

I am not a slave to history, fashion, culture, tradition, or anyone else. If I wear white shoes with black socks, and someone tells me that for the occasion, it is wrong; I will weigh it against the ‘right’ thing to wear, and if by some chance the way I have decided to dress is better in my opinion then the so-called right way to dress, then I will not hesitate to keep my white shoes and black socks.

To keep it kilt related, I was once wearing my kilt, looking in the mirror, and the front apron came undone and fell to the side, hanging low. I was struck by how beautiful it looked just hanging there, the ragged edge just hanging off my side. There is nothing to say this is an appropriate way to wear a kilt. But if I have an occasion where I want to appear that rugged in a kilt, I will wear it that way.

[OC Richard]

4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner

These two seem appropriate to the field in which I often hear "traditional" discussed, that of ITM or Irish Traditional Music.

In the introduction to Traditional Music in Ireland, Tomas O Canainn writes:

"It is difficult ot define and analyse the basic elements of traditional music in Ireland. Clearly the adjective 'traditional' implies that something in the music is being passed from one generation of performers to the next. Most of them are aware of the traditional process to some extent, and of their place in it, but would find it difficult to define what exactly they mean by 'traditional'. Nevertheless, without any knowledge of the history of a piece of music they are able to describe it as either traditional or not on a first hearing. This implies that the music has certain features... which put it, for them, into the traditional category.
Yet one must face the fact that some of the best-known pieces in the traditional musicians' repertoire are of fairly recent origin. They are accepted because they conform is some way to the performers' concept of what is traditional- they "sound right". They have, as it were, dispensed with the years of moulding and reshaping that are a part of oral transmission and have taken their place in the living tradition. The only certainty is that if they are to remain in that tradition they will henceforth be subject to a process of continuous change."

This passage, with only a few changes in wording, could well apply to the notions of what is "traditional" in the realm of Highland Dress to those who regularly see it worn.

[Larry124]

Tradition is at its best about memory, heritage, respect, sentiment, nostalgia, comfort and pleasure -- perhaps preservation and reenactment as well.

At worst it is idolatry – a sacred cow, a golden calf, an icon, an asserted "self-evident" argument topper. Avoid those.


P.S. Forgive me if "sacred cow" is no longer an acceptable expression. These days one never knows.

[davedove]

Yes, I guess you are right, we cannot escape that we were raised by some form of tradition. My main point it we should not blindly assume that the way we were raised, or the way things are done are the right way, or the best way. We must be willing to dare, for if no one dared to go against tradition, we would not have progress.

Don’t worry, I didn’t expect my views to be accepted by everyone, or in fact everyone. The way I see things is only applicable to me. I can understand how you would see my views as wrong. As a person I am Solipsistic and self-centered. Though I respect everything in the world, I also hold nothing as sacred.

Though this will really insult people, I say it with no shame. If I so feel; I will take anyone’s cultural uniqueness and co-opt it into my own should I think it cool, interesting, or otherwise better then something I already have. Just as I will drop and kick to the curb anything about MY cultural uniqueness should I one day decide it to be of no use or something better comes along.

I am not a slave to history, fashion, culture, tradition, or anyone else. If I wear white shoes with black socks, and someone tells me that for the occasion, it is wrong; I will weigh it against the ‘right’ thing to wear, and if by some chance the way I have decided to dress is better in my opinion then the so-called right way to dress, then I will not hesitate to keep my white shoes and black socks.

To keep it kilt related, I was once wearing my kilt, looking in the mirror, and the front apron came undone and fell to the side, hanging low. I was struck by how beautiful it looked just hanging there, the ragged edge just hanging off my side. There is nothing to say this is an appropriate way to wear a kilt. But if I have an occasion where I want to appear that rugged in a kilt, I will wear it that way.

I don't disagree with your sentiments. Sometimes traditions should be questioned. I have never been one to do something just because everyone else does it. I like to know why they do it.

For example, let's say that everyone in a culture wears one trouser leg three inches shorter than the other (go with me here, I know it's silly). When asked why, one is told because that's the traditional way to do it. Going back through the years, one finds that people have been doing it for a long time. Then, finally, one find's the origin of the tradition. A king had a disfigured leg and the only way to make his trousers comfortable was to cut one leg three inches shorter. His subjects, as subjects often do, began to mimic the practice and cut one trouser leg shorter to "be like the king." Such a tradition, while widespread, really doesn't make sense anymore, but people continue it anyway. It doesn't hurt anyone, but to outsiders seems a bit strange.

Now, how long is required to make a tradition? I would say there is no defined time period. For some, it it's not several hundred years old, it's still a fad. For others, if their father did it, that's all that's needed. And for a few, if you've done it two years in a row, that's good enough.

I would personally say that if the surrounding society has been doing it for a few generations, it can be considered traditional.

[Lyle1]

I know of only one quote that will fit; it comes from my Mother; she's 91 this year.

"If you don't like the way we're rowing this boat - get out of the boat. Oh - mind the sharks."
[/I]

I don't much care for cutesy aphorisms; they often blur the meaning.

I assume that basically, if obliquely, you are suggesting that if I do not agree with you, I should leave the forum. If everyone who did not agree with you left, you would not longer" have a forum. What you would be left with could best be described with another "F" word -- FLOCK!