To Black Watch or not to Black Watch?

[KEArnold]

Bottom line: the Black Watch tartan would not be appropriate for a Renaissance Fair.

T.[/QUOTE]


So what would? the solid black?

[Mike_Oettle]

Cajunscot (Todd) wrote: “Bottom line: the Black Watch tartan would not be appropriate for a Renaissance Fair.”

I second KEArnold’s question.
While we don’t know what tartans were worn before the Black Watch came into existence, there is evidence that there were tartans of one sort or another. And since we have little no idea what they were, or what significance they had (in the few cases where artefacts have been found), I would think Black Watch is as good as any (even if it is demonstrably later than the period intended).
Regards,
Mike

[macwilkin]

Bottom line: the Black Watch tartan would not be appropriate for a Renaissance Fair.

T.

So what would? the solid black?[/QUOTE]

Cajunscot (Todd) wrote: “Bottom line: the Black Watch tartan would not be appropriate for a Renaissance Fair.”

I second KEArnold’s question.
While we don’t know what tartans were worn before the Black Watch came into existence, there is evidence that there were tartans of one sort or another. And since we have little no idea what they were, or what significance they had (in the few cases where artefacts have been found), I would think Black Watch is as good as any (even if it is demonstrably later than the period intended).
Regards,
Mike

Since the Government Sett was first adopted in 1725, and its origins are murky at best, as a historian, I would say that wearing it at an event that takes place before the founding of the Highland companies is somehwat suspect at best. Given that the kilt itself is a post-Renaissance garment, perhaps it's better to wear a non-named tartan. See Matt's article about the history of the early kilt for more history:

http://albanach.org/kilt.html

T.

[Bog Trotter]

See Matt's article above; The late noted tartan scholar Jamie Scarlett proposed that regimental tartans gave rise to clan tartans, and not the other way around.

I can't say I've seen any source that support the claim that Highlanders seconded to Roger's Rangers wore a kilt; there were a number of Highland regiments serving in North America during the F & I of course -- do you have such a source?

Bottom line: the Black Watch tartan would not be appropriate for a Renaissance Fair.

T.

In response to Cajunscot's question concerning Highlanders being kilted serving with Rogers Rangers. My first source for this is the book, 18TH Century Highlanders (Men-At-Arms Series) by Stuart Reid. On page 16 is an entry from a surgeon, an eye witness who stated," The Highlanders have put on breeches and Lord How's Filabegs".
The second book, "Armies of the American Wars 1753-1815 (page 35) by Philip Katcher, refers to the same entry from the surgeon. The Lord How referred to was Lord George Howe, then serving with Rogers Rangers. Lord Howe was trained by Major Robert Rogers, and was with a scouting party party of rangers and Light Infantry when he was killed in a brief firefight against the French near Fort Ticonderoga on 6 July, 1758. There were Highlanders serving with Lord Howe at the time, although I am not certain as to the number.
The source indicates that the Highlanders serving with Lord Howe were ordered to wear breeches, filabegs and other modified equipment ordered by Howe. I hope this info. is helpful.

[macwilkin]

In response to Cajunscot's question concerning Highlanders being kilted serving with Rogers Rangers. My first source for this is the book, 18TH Century Highlanders (Men-At-Arms Series) by Stuart Reid. On page 16 is an entry from a surgeon, an eye witness who stated," The Highlanders have put on breeches and Lord How's Filabegs".
The second book, "Armies of the American Wars 1753-1815 (page 35) by Philip Katcher, refers to the same entry from the surgeon. The Lord How referred to was Lord George Howe, then serving with Rogers Rangers. Lord Howe was trained by Major Robert Rogers, and was with a scouting party party of rangers and Light Infantry when he was killed in a brief firefight against the French near Fort Ticonderoga on 6 July, 1758. There were Highlanders serving with Lord Howe at the time, although I am not certain as to the number.
The source indicates that the Highlanders serving with Lord Howe were ordered to wear breeches, filabegs and other modified equipment ordered by Howe. I hope this info. is helpful.

Many thanks; I have the Reid book on a shelf about 10 feet away from where I'm typing this post.

The breeches in question may be a field-expedient adaptation of Indian leggings by Highlanders...

T.

[Dale Seago]

The breeches in question may be a field-expedient adaptation of Indian leggings by Highlanders....

That would make sense. Rogers and those under him seem as a rule to have been more interested in "what works well" than in what was "fashionable" for military use.

[OC Richard]

The Black Watch tartan was known as the Government Sett, and was based on a Campbell tartan.

I just reread the beginning of this thread and noticed this statement.

In The Setts Of The Scottish Tartans Donald C Stewart writes

BLACK WATCH

All the accounts of the inception of the Black Watch tartan speak of it as a design new at the time when the regiment was formed. In that it is not identical with any then-exisiting pattern, this is true enough. There remains the possibility that it was an abstraction from patterns already in use.

Many of the tartans of today are founded on the scheme of the Black Watch, and some of them we know to have been admittedly built on it, such as the Forbes and the Gordon. But there are others that may be earlier than the Black Watch. Unfortunately, it is difficult to fix the age of these. Yet, in addition to the merely traditional designs, there are several actual fragments, of great age, in which the characteristic feature of the Black Watch is to be seen. DW Stewart shows the design of a fragment, named the MacRae Hunting, and dating from before 1715, which is clearly of the Black Watch type, and the fragment he describes as having been worn by Prince Charles Edward while in the MacKintosh county contains the same germ-idea. (The author goes on to enumerate several other examples.)

Whatever the actual sources of these fragments may have been, they seem to rule out the idea that the Black Watch tartan was entirely original, and at the same time rule out the neccessity of supposing that such tartans as the Athol Murray derive from the Black Watch.


CAMPBELL

Campbell of Argyll or Campbell of Lochawe consist of the Black Watch as a foundation with alternately a white and a yellow line...

The Smiths write of is as the oldest of the Campbell designs and members of the Clan have adduced it to support their claim that the Black Watch is essentially a Campbell tartan.

[macwilkin]

I just reread the beginning of this thread and noticed this statement.

In The Setts Of The Scottish Tartans Donald C Stewart writes

BLACK WATCH

All the accounts of the inception of the Black Watch tartan speak of it as a design new at the time when the regiment was formed. In that it is not identical with any then-exisiting pattern, this is true enough. There remains the possibility that it was an abstraction from patterns already in use.

Many of the tartans of today are founded on the scheme of the Black Watch, and some of them we know to have been admittedly built on it, such as the Forbes and the Gordon. But there are others that may be earlier than the Black Watch. Unfortunately, it is difficult to fix the age of these. Yet, in addition to the merely traditional designs, there are several actual fragments, of great age, in which the characteristic feature of the Black Watch is to be seen. DW Stweart shows the design of a fragment, named the MacRae Hunting, and dating from before 1715, which is clearly of the Black Watch type, and the fragment he describes as having been worn by Prince Charles Edward while in the MacKintosh county contains the same germ-idea. (The author goes on to enumerate several other examples.)

Whatever the actual sources of these fragments may have been, they seem to rule out the idea that the Black Watch tartan was entirely original, and at the same time rule out the neccessity of supposing that such tartans as the Athol Murray derive from the Black Watch.


CAMPBELL

Campbell of Argyll or Campbell of Lochawe consist of the Black Watch as a foundation with alternately a white and a yellow line...

The Smiths write of is as the oldest of the Campbell designs and members of the Clan have adduced it to support their claim that the Black Watch is essentially a Campbell tartan.

Remember though, that Stewart wrote this in the 1960s. You might wish to review what the late tartan scholar James Scarlett had to say about the origins of the Government Sett. I'm sure Matt & Peter will chime in on this as well...

T.

[OC Richard]

Remember though, that Stewart wrote this in the 1960s. You might wish to review what the late tartan scholar James Scarlett had to say about the origins of the Government Sett.
T.

Very intriguing! What did James Scarlett have to say about its origins, and if his conclusions are different than Stewart's, is it because new evidence has come to light in the intervening years, or is it simply a different interpretation of the same evidence Stewart mentions?

[macwilkin]

Very intriguing! What did James Scarlett have to say about its origins, and if his conclusions are different than Stewart's, is it because new evidence has come to light in the intervening years, or is it simply a different interpretation of the same evidence Stewart mentions?

Basically, Scarlett (who was a research partner of Stewart until the latter's death in the 1970s) believed that it was the military tartans that gave "birth" to concept of clan tartans, and not the other way around. His theory & findings may be found in his "The Origins and Development of Military Tartans: a re-appraisal", which was published in 2003, and is available through the STA. Matt has an article on his web site which summarizes Scarlett's theory, but I can't quite figure out how to link to the specific article.

T.