Monochrome?

[ThinBlueLine]

gpmeakin & cajunscot,

Not wanting to disrespect the clan and the chief are exactly my concerns. Have either of you heard about the "must be monochrome" requirement before?

[macwilkin]

gpmeakin & cajunscot,

Not wanting to disrespect the clan and the chief are exactly my concerns. Have either of you heard about the "must be monochrome" requirement before?

Yes. Good on you for asking. Frequently folks tend to thumb their nose at what may seem like silly rules, but as davidlpope is want to remind us, Highland attire is not a costume.
T.

[ThinBlueLine]

cajunscot,

I try to do things correctly, else I had better not waste my time.
So, in the case of the wreath, since the colors should be blue and white would it be proper to desaturate it to a grey and white set then?

[macwilkin]

cajunscot,

I try to do things correctly, else I had better not waste my time.
So, in the case of the wreath, since the colors should be blue and white would it be proper to desaturate it to a grey and white set then?

I think that would work. Rathdown would be better qualified to answer the question, though.

T.

[gary meakin]

go here http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/242.html

I don't see anything here that mentions color at all.

It does say, however, "Chiefs have the right to wear their Crests as badges"
I guess this would indicate one color.

It doesn't say anything about reproducing on paper etc. That's in the info leaflet that you mentioned.

If your intent is to honor your clan and chief I can't imagine him not saying it was OK to have it in color.

[davidlpope]

Greetings all,

I have been considering having a tattoo done of the Hannay crest badge and, being of the historian persuasion, I have been doing a fair amount of research to make sure I have the correct design.
I have recently stumbled across something that confuses me slightly. The following comes from "The Court of the Lord Lyon Information Leaflet No. 2, Scottish Crest Badges:"

"Crest Badges are for wear by the clansmen, and as they are made of silver or white metal they should never be illustrated on paper or other materials in colour, other than white or silver. Line drawings should be printed in
monochrome."

If I am reading this correctly then it means that the crest badge should be done in black and white or greyscale despite the color that would be in the wreath (blue and white).

For the most part this should not be a problem since the two major elements, the cross and the crescent, of the badge are black. However, I want to make sure I do not violate any rules of propriety by making an error with the wreath.

For illustrative purposes here is a colored version of the badge (not exactly the style I want to use, but it shows the two elements of the crest and the color of the wreath):



Any assistance offered will be greatly appreciated.

A couple things to consider:

1. First, the clansman's badge is actually the chief's crest within the strap and buckle. Display of this badge denotes that you are a follower/supporter of the person who bears the crest that is encircled by the strap and buckle. In other instances a person's badge is used to identify servants, possessions, etc. So, I'm wondering if you have you ever met David Hannay of Kirkdale? Is he a good guy? Do you really want to spend the rest of your life stamped with a sign of allegiance to him and his offspring?

2. When heraldry is demonstrated in black and white, a system called hatching, or Petra Sancta Hatching, is often used. In this method the direction of various hatchings or dots are used to denote specific colors of the arms. This allows one to accurately imagine what the arms would look like in the true tinctures even though the design is rendered in black and white. You might consider doing this, although it is usually used for etchings on silver.

3. Whatever you do, please do the research and confirm that you are actually a Hannay descendent. Too many folks rush to get a "clan tattoo" and then discover that their ancestors were actually English, Dutch, etc. rather than Scottish. Be wary of "sept" and surname lists for clans. Solid genealogy is your only real method here.

4. If you do get the tattoo, ensure that you have researched and found the actual blazon of the crest. What is rendered in your design as sable(black), may actually be argent(silver) and colored black in your illustration simply because the fellow creating the image thought it would look better that way.

5. Think long and hard about whether you'd ever plan to aquire arms of your own. That doesn't keep one from wearing his chief's badge and buckle, but it might change your mind about wearing it as a tattoo.

Best of luck, but "gang warily"...

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

For illustrative purposes here is a colored version of the badge (not exactly the style I want to use, but it shows the two elements of the crest and the color of the wreath):



Any assistance offered will be greatly appreciated.

From a strictly heraldic point of view the strap should either be "proper" (the colour of leather, which is assumed to be brown or russet) or the first named colour of the livery of the chief. The lettering should be the first named metal, and the furniture (buckle and tab) gold.

As to the strap itself, the end of the strap should pass over itself, not tucked under itself as in the illustration, above. (Tucked under or "knotted in base" is how the insignia of the garter is displayed.)

Unless you motto is "Honest Sweat Makes Smelly Pants" it is doubtful that a blue strap with a gold buckle will be confused with the insignia of the Order of the Garter.

Mike McLaren's book, The Book of Crests ISBN 1-55613-401-0, published by Heritage Books, Inc., Bowie MD 20716 (tel: (301) 390-7709) has an excellent illustration of the Hanny clan badge on pg. 99 which you would probably be well advised to show your ink-slinger before he starts work. Please note that the strap & buckle are wrong, so don't have him copy it.

Colour or monochrome? It's up to you. If a tattooist is extremely skilled, there is no doubt he can make a B&W tattoo look fantastic... the tricky part will be the way in which he handles the all-black crest...

David Pope and I attended a dinner last year in honour of the Lord Lyon. At that dinner the Lyon was at pains to point out that his authority is limited to Scotland, and to Scotland only. That said, it must be remembered that the jurisdiction of a clan chief is universal; that is, it is without boundaries. Most chiefs, however, respect the opinion of the Lyon, and as a result request that clan folk refrain from displaying the clan badge in any manner whatsoever, other than as a cap badge or lapel pin.

Last, but certainly not least, whatever you do, do not put your name (or that of your clan) on your tattoo. The scroll with "Hannay" on it is just plain wrong.

[ThinBlueLine]

davidlpope,

All excellent points. I shall try to answer them as best as I can.

1. No, I have not met Professor Hannay. You have an excellent point with this. I was originally considering this as paying tribute to my ancestors and to the clan I am most closely associated with.

2. That is an excellent idea. I think I know what method you are talking about.

3. I am entirely certain that I am a Hannay descendant. My grandmother was a Hanna and my family has traced that line to a group of Hannahs who came over from Ulster, Ireland to South Carolina. That group originated from a group of Hannays who left the Galloway area.

4. Every source I have found so far lists the crest as "a cross crosslet fitchee issuing from a crescent sable." The various designs of the cross crosslet fitchee and the crescent are numerous which makes things slightly difficult if I am looking for pure authenticity.

5. I do not really have plans to acquire my own arms since I will not be having any children to pass them down to. However, that is another excellent point.

I think that covered everything. Thank you for replying. It has given me much to consider.


MacMillan of Rathdown,

Thank you for the amazing information.
First, before I respond to your points, I just want to let you know that the image I posted was, by no means, the design I would go with. I only posted it to give an illustration of the crest within the belt. There are many things about the belt and buckle design about that image that I highly dislike. Now, on to the response.
I was unaware that the strap being knotted in base was that much of an error. That may very well save me much embarrassment.
I will have to look that book up. I am mostly certain that my county library has a copy. I am long overdue for a library trip.
I was unaware that the Lord Lyon was against other displays of the clan badge, that definitely gives me cause to reconsider.
Lastly, I would never do the clan name (or any other name) in a scroll or other silly attachment. Things like that often drive me insane to look at.
Thank you very much. And thank you to all who have replied. I have learned quite a bit from this.

[tripleblessed]

MacMillan, as is usually the case, especially on dress and heraldry, is both accurate and to the point. While I am not one to choose ink for myself, I'm not completely opposed. To anyone contemplating what you are, I would say contact your clan chief. If he is willing to provide you with a graphic of what he would approve, on his letterhead, then proceed as you wish. If not, I would find another path to honor my forebears. As MoR pointed out, the Lyon Court does not reach here, but your clan chief's authority over his property rights and his clan rights does not have boundaries.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The clan badge is intended, as personal adornment, to show a kindred bond with the chief of a clan.

As long as the representation is heraldically accurate, it would be my opinion that its display by a member of the clan, as a tattoo, would be no different than displaying it as a cap badge or kilt pin.