Mixing tartans - yes or no?

[Father Bill]

In honest ignorance: What's the issue with Campbell of Argyle? I'm not familiar with that concern. Somebody please un-ignorant me.

[Jock Scot]

You left out the tartan waistcoat

The OP did not ask about tartan waistcoats.

[Jock Scot]

Too Much is Not Enough





Here's a slightly related question: Has anyone ever, just once, said "I have no idea which tartan this is" when asked ? Were you ejected or shunned?

Yes.

[Jock Scot]

Question here Jock. You said not to wear Clan Tartan "A" with Clan Badge "D". My wife is of Irish decent and her name is one of those with a Badge associated with it. So would it be wrong to wear my MacKay kilt and say a kilt pin or badge of her family name in respect for her and her family? Always been curious about that.

The problem here is that I doubt that there are many Scots who would know an Irish "name" badge, so the danger(I use the word very lightly) that a MacKay might notice. Do you want to spend half an hour explaining, in the unlikely event of anyone noticing? No it is hardly going to tip the the world off balance, but that is not how it is done. Let me explain.

We all have two sides of where our roots come from and unless there is a tadd of order about these things we could be festooned with all sorts of tartans and badges to honour our assorted roots,but that is not how we do it. Generally speaking one tartan is worn and the badge of that tartan(a fellow with his own coat of arms may if he chooses wear his own crest) accompanies it. That is how its done, I did not come up with the idea, I am just answering the question!

[Jock Scot]

In honest ignorance: What's the issue with Campbell of Argyle? I'm not familiar with that concern. Somebody please un-ignorant me.

Where do I start! In a nutshell, the Campbells had a happy knack(from their point of view) of usually ending up on the winning side, the Crown usually and were not averse in flaunting their successes. They were rather more adept at using their brains rather than a sword and basically everyone else was jealous of the fact! The Campbells were wrongly blamed for the orchestration of the massacre at Glencoe and on it goes. As with all the clans in those days, matters had the unhappy knack of being ruthlessly dealt with and whilst the Campbells did not often have blood on their hands, they were often responsible and for whose benifit?-----their own.

[Biathlonman]

Just to bring us back to my original question - what do the style guys think of the idea of kilt in one my clan's tartan and hose in another of the same clan's tartan. We should not get into clan v. clan history here - all is (mostly) forgiven and the subject is best dealt with in another forum.

Campbell of Argyll is not on a list authorized by a previous chief, by the way. It is like a Black Watch with white and yellow overstripes - or a Gordon with the addition of white to the yellow. Campbell is like a Black Watch in lighter hues. Was worn by the A&S until several years ago until they switched to the darker version worn in today's RRofS.

[Father Bill]

Where do I start! In a nutshell, the Campbells had a happy knack(from their point of view) of usually ending up on the winning side, the Crown usually and were not averse in flaunting their successes. They were rather more adept at using their brains rather than a sword and basically everyone else was jealous of the fact! The Campbells were wrongly blamed for the orchestration of the massacre at Glencoe and on it goes. As with all the clans in those days, matters had the unhappy knack of being ruthlessly dealt with and whilst the Campbells did not often have blood on their hands, they were often responsible and for whose benifit?-----their own.

Thank you Jock. I knew of the legend of Glencoe but the word "Argyle" in particular threw me for a loop until your comment and a bit of online research. You may smile, but I assumed that you would be first to help me out, and that it would be gentle as well.

Appreciated.

[Morris at Heathfield]

In honest ignorance: What's the issue with Campbell of Argyle? I'm not familiar with that concern. Somebody please un-ignorant me.

http://ccsna.org/jsep50a.htm#A0

The opinion of the 12th Duke of Argyll, from the Clan Campbell Society of North America website, reaffirmed by the present Duke of Argyll. A longer explanation can be found in Alastair Campbell of Airds' Campbell Tartan, and in an appendix to vol. 1 of his A History of Clan Campbell.

Basically, the Campbells have customarily worn the Government tartan, likely because those Campbells who actually had kilts had them due to their military service. If I remember my facts correctly, the only Campbell tartan that was submitted to the Highland Society of London was the Campbell of Breadalbane tartan (that worn by the Breadalbane Fencibles, not the current Campbell of Breadalbane tartan).

During the 19th century two "Campbell of Argyll" tartans emerged. One had white stripes on the green check, and the other had alternating yellow and white stripes on the green check. Each was worn by successive Dukes of Argyll (the 6th and 7th Dukes). No reason was apparently given for the new tartans. Whether it was due to vanity, fraud (e.g. by the Sobieski Stuart brothers), or a desire to differentiate the clan tartan from that used by the 42nd Regiment, is unknown. However, the common folk around Inveraray believed the new tartans to be special tartans only to be worn by the chief. The tartan now known as "Campbell of Argyll" was published in numerous tartan books, beginning with the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842, while the Campbell of Argyll tartan with the white stripe was published in Smiths' The Authenticated Tartans of the Clans & Families of Scotland in 1850, apparently with the approval of the 7th Duke of Argyll.

Later Dukes of Argyll apparently reverted to wearing the Government tartan, but by then the "Campbell of Argyll" tartan (with yellow and white stripes) was widely known, being woven by the tartan mills, and being sold as "Campbell" or "Campbell of Argyll". It would not occur to most Campbells unfamiliar with their clan's custom to look for their tartan under "Black Watch" or "42nd".

One Duke of Argyll went so far as to employ an artist to paint black the light stripes on a portrait of either the 6th or the 7th Duke of Argyll. When the artist found out what his job was, he refused. A version of the story is found in Sir Thomas Innes of Learney's revision of The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands. Innes of Learney, taking as fact that the Campbell of Argyll tartan was the original Campbell tartan, interprets the event as an attempt by the Campbell chiefs to appropriate the universal, national Government tartan.

With the arrival of tartans in the ancient colors during the early or mid-20th century, the Campbells gradually began adopting the ancient colors. Even though tartans in different shades are supposedly the same tartan, it is generally understood that the Government tartan in the modern colors is the "Black Watch", while in the ancient colors it is the Campbell clan tartan.

[xman]

Just to bring us back to my original question - what do the style guys think of the idea of kilt in one my clan's tartan and hose in another of the same clan's tartan.

While not a style guru I can confess that I have seen EXTREMELY different hose worn beneath the kilt formally. I like to imagine inherited items worn to honour an ancestor rather than match the kilt. I recently recommended a little emphatically to my brother that he wear National Scott hose beneath his Clanranald kilt when he gets married this year. They're the same colours so how 'different' they are is for up for discussion. Tragically he opted for white citing, "It's what I'm used to".

The tartan tie seems to me a little ... whimsical? That gets confused when worn with a tartan kilt.

[Biathlonman]

Morris at Heathfield has certainly done his homework. At least it shows that a once feared clan has translated the energy once used to hatch nefarious plans against its neighbours, into internal tartan politics.

Along with the other Whig clans of the mid-1700s, Clan Campbell filled the ranks of the government highland regiments that both policed the highlands and fought the House of Hanover's battles against the French, at high cost. In a generation, gentlemen from Jacobite clans joined them.
If there ever was a Campbell "family" regiment, it was the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, rather than the Black Watch.

Finally, I'm beginning to think that diced hose might be the right choice at this point.