Tartan for Me, Reliability?

[figheadair]

I suggest you send an email to the Scottish Tartans Authority (STA) at

admin@tartansauthority.com

and ask them about a McElmurry tartan. The author of "Tartan for Me!" (Dr. Philip Smith) is a past President of the American Branch of the STA. They may know, and if not, they might forward your query to Dr. Smith.

There's not a McElmurry tartan and the fact that Phil Smith is a past President of the US branch of the STA is rather academic, or perhaps not so in this case

The problem with Tartan For Me! is that people tend to use it without reading the rather hefty introductory material, which includes specific disclaimers about what the book is and is not. It is not a "clan sept list." The author recommends tartans for names, which is something different than saying a name is part of a clan.

The other problem is that there is no supporting documentation to say why a particular tartan was recommended.

So I would caution people to do further research to see if the connection can be supported. Otherwise, treat it simply as one man's opinion. It's a good place to start, but it shouldn't be the only resource you use.

Couldn't agree more Matt. I remember Phil Smith doing some of his research by going through Scottish phone books and recall my father being agast at some very peculiar (non-scottish) names coming under Clan Campbell by virtue of having been listed in the Argyll phone book.

[ctbuchanan]

this Ancestry.com's take


McElmurray Name Meaning and History
Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Giolla Muire ‘son of the servant of Mary’, the surname of a chieftain family in County Down. It is more commonly Anglicized as Gilmore.

[McElmurry]

Wow, thanks for all of the great responses!

I'd try the DNA test on yourself, you may find even more detail results of your family.
I honestly think you'd probably have a closer match to Morrison either the Scots or Irish clan than the Murray, just a guess.

It’s my mother’s name so my DNA won’t work and I can’t get any of my uncles to get tested.

Now that's interesting! I bet you wish you could talk to him and hear his story!

Yes I do. I need to organize my research and write it all down. It involves a trading post in a cave along the river, river pirates, and ends in a scalping. I think Jimmy Stewart played the lead in the movie.

A detachment of soldiers from the Black Watch was sent to Ft. de Chartres in the Illinois Country after the French and Indian War:

http://www.42ndrhr.org/chartres.php

Illinois was actually in British control following 1763; the Western side of the Mississippi was turned over to Spain and became Spanish Upper Louisiana until the early 19th century. It should be noted that a majority of residents of the Illinois Country were of French heritage, regardless of who was in charge of the territory.

The British eventually were forces from the Illinois Country by George Rogers Clark during the Western campaigns of the Revolution.

I need to go back and check some dates. John McElmurry’s sons were given deeds under the Act of March 3, 1791 based on French grants they held from their father. I had heard George Rogers Clark had fought in the area but I didn’t know when the French had turned the area over to the British.

There's not a McElmurry tartan and the fact that Phil Smith is a past President of the US branch of the STA is rather academic, or perhaps not so in this case

Couldn't agree more Matt. I remember Phil Smith doing some of his research by going through Scottish phone books and recall my father being agast at some very peculiar (non-scottish) names coming under Clan Campbell by virtue of having been listed in the Argyll phone book.

Thanks, that helps put things in perspective.

this Ancestry.com's take

McElmurray Name Meaning and History
Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Giolla Muire ‘son of the servant of Mary’, the surname of a chieftain family in County Down. It is more commonly Anglicized as Gilmore.

Yes, that seems to be the most common reliable interpretation which is why the suggested connection to Murray caught me by surprise.

[macwilkin]

I need to go back and check some dates. John McElmurry’s sons were given deeds under the Act of March 3, 1791 based on French grants they held from their father. I had heard George Rogers Clark had fought in the area but I didn’t know when the French had turned the area over to the British.

This is a very common practice in Spanish Louisiana; Daniel Boone, for example, was given quite a bit of land and appointed a Syndic (combination judge. sheriff and militia officer) by the Spanish when he and his family moved to Missouri (St. Charles/Femme Osage) in 1799. The Spanish invited a number of Americans (mostly Scots-Irish) in, as well as Delaware and Shawnee Indians, to provide a buffer for St. Louis against the Osage, who could have easily driven out the Spanish.

It should be noted that none of the European powers had any large presence in Upper Louisiana, especially in terms of military forces; the British, for example, had their largest garrison at Ft. Detroit, and depended more on Indian allies to fight against American settlers in Kentucky during the "Year of the Bloody Sevens". The Spanish Louisiana Regiment garrisoned posts from St. Louis to New Orleans and over to Mobile, fighting against the British under Galvez at Pensecola during the Revolution.

The Scottish explorer James Mackay and the father/son duo of Moses and Stephen F. Austin also received land in Missouri.

T,

[Morris at Heathfield]

I suspect I may have instigated this thread with a comment in another thread. Perhaps the way I'd put it is that Tartan For Me! makes up for in breadth what it lacks in depth. I'm sure Phil Smith put plenty of time and effort into compiling the book; however, there's no substitute for doing your own historical, geographical, and genealogical research. Now, for those who are either too lazy to do that research, or who for some reason are unable to do it, Tartan For Me! will have to do (unless, of course, their surname doesn't appear in the book at all).

My main quibble with Tartan For Me! (and, by extension, the "Search by Surname" feature of the STA's Tartan Ferret, which I suspect is based on it), is that it recommends the Stirling and Bannockburn tartan for the surname Esplin, when the vast majority of Scottish Esplins live in Angus. My Esplin line has been traced back to the late 17th century, and all of them lived in Forfarshire (Angus) or Perthshire, most of them on Ogilvy territory. However, the name is not associated with any clan. I suspect what happened is that Phil Smith looked up the surname in Black's Surnames of Scotland, noticed that one or two of the earliest bearers of the name seem to have lived in Stirling (although that's not the only place the name appeared) and, since the name wasn't on any sept lists, decided to assign it the corresponding district tartan. Now, if he had access to one of those nifty web surname maps back in 1983, or whenever he wrote his book, he might have come to a different conclusion, assigning the name the Angus tartan, perhaps.

I know that's just a single example, but I think it illustrates why it's best to do your own research when choosing your tartan.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

You bring up a huge problem when it comes to district tartans -- and that is how to recommend them based on surname. It's a really tricky thing to do, and I always make the effort to go into detail with a person I am talking with about district tartans that I'm afraid is lacking most of the time.

Most people would look in Tartan For Me! and see Esplin = Stirling & Bannockburn, and simply conclude that this is the tartan for the Esplin name. Period.

But I tell people that when it comes to recommending a district tartan, there are many things to consider. Do you want to wear a tartan that represents the place of origin for the name? Or the place where the name was first recorded, if the origin is not known? Or the place where the family historically held lands and title? Or the region where the majority of those of the name currently live? These could all be different places.

For those still living in Scotland, maybe you want to wear the district tartan for where you currently reside? Or where you were born?

For those in the diaspora, maybe your grandfather, who immigrated to the United States, was born in Glasgow and it would mean more to you to wear the Glasgow tartan, rather than whatever is recommended in Tartan For Me, because the name is on record in 1260, in some place you never heard your grandfather speak of?

See how many choices you have? All these could be different district tartans. And they all would be perfectly legitimate to wear.

[Tobus]

It’s my mother’s name so my DNA won’t work and I can’t get any of my uncles to get tested.

As I understand it, the Y-DNA test relies on the father's line, but the mtDNA check's the mother's line.

This link seems helpful. I've been thinking about doing this, as my "Scottish connection" is from my mother's line and we've hit a dead end with the paper trail.

[sven]

I have a Morrison kilt too, someone gave it to me

[super8mm]

As I understand it, the Y-DNA test relies on the father's line, but the mtDNA check's the mother's line.

This link seems helpful. I've been thinking about doing this, as my "Scottish connection" is from my mother's line and we've hit a dead end with the paper trail.

I just did the DNA test as I am a adoptee from birth and found my Scot roots through my Y-DNA orgins, but not real sure on the clan yet but it looks like Lamont. I am now looking for a couple of males that might be related but so far no luck but its only been 3 weeks.

[Bob C]

I think that book tries too hard to connect everyone with a tartan. For example, it says my surname is a sept of Clan Grant and the U.S. Grants seem to echo that. The U.K Grants and the Lord Lyon (several lords back, now) say no. It never made any geographical sense for us to be connected to the Grants, and the only connection seems to be that book and the people who take it as gospel.

I actually bought a Grant tartan tie because of that book, before I knew better. Fortunately, I studied more before I bought my kilt.