What's Modern Kilt Wear> ...or...what's this subforum really about?

[JSFMACLJR]

There is a great pic of traditional style for fishing in the post above, and here is what I would consider as modern style for fishing,
[IMG][/IMG]

Not really a whole lot of differences IMO so what makes one any more modern or tradtional then the other?

That's a spinning rod, hardly traditional, whereas Jock Scot is fishing with a fly rod, although it appears to be made of graphite rather than bamboo or greenheart!

[Father Bill]

You know, guys, that's the nature of this "postmodern" (as it is called) era. You can deconstruct a word until it's useless, but you know... I think I still have a sense of what a modern kilt is despite the deconstruction. I'll bet you do too. :-)

[Spartan Tartan]

You know, guys, that's the nature of this "postmodern" (as it is called) era. You can deconstruct a word until it's useless, but you know... I think I still have a sense of what a modern kilt is despite the deconstruction. I'll bet you do too. :-)

Well said, Father.

[Cowher]

Maybe I'll get yelled at here but I have recently read a thread about why no one talks about modern kilt wear. Now we are here talking about the distinction between modern kilt wear and traditional style.
Why are we crying about "no one is talking about modern kilts!" and "what is this sub forum even about?!?". Just post some pics!!! Start a thread about your modern kilt! Show it off. Insted of crying about why no one else is doing what you think should be done just man up and do it YOURSELF!

Maybe we should have a subforum that is called non-traditional kilts. That is for non-tartan kilt. It wont be for formal or traditional jackets. Only for those who are to talk about utilikilts altkilts freedomkilts and all other kilts in that style.

Rant over

By the way no offense ment to anyone I'm not mad. I just want to see some modern kilt wear!! I don't want to hear about why the modern kilt wearers seem under represented.

[Lyle1]

The "sub-header" on this forum says -

"The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today. (Basically from the mid 1980's to today.)"

To my mind, I've always thought of this sub-forum as a place to discuss items like Freedom Kilts (Steve's non-tartan offerings), R-Kilts, Utilikilts, Amerikilts, X-Kilts, Alt.kilt, TFCK , Blacklader, and so on. But that's just me.

IT SEEMS TO ME... and again, this is just me.... that we have 30+ sub-forums where guys discuss tartan kilts and associated topics.. Can't we have just ONE sub-forum where guys can come to discuss kilts which are completely non-traditional?

[/b]

I have reservations about creating a separate forum for "completely non-traditional" kilts, because much of the discussion in the Modern Kilt Wear forum is about wearing kilts (any kilts) in a modern way, not about the construction and/or styling of the kilt itself. If the discussion was limited to kilts and kilts only, we could easily create separate forums, providing everyone understood what was "completely non-traditional" and what was not!

I personally only have a marginal interest in modern/contemporary/completely non-traditional kilts (if I were younger, I could probably be tempted). I do, however, find value in the comments and discussion of what people wear (shoes, hose, shirts, hats, etc.) with those styles of kilts, and how kilts fit into modern lifestyles. To me, Modern Kilt Wear is an inclusive title that describes wearing a kilt (any kilt) in a modern way, and I would not like to have the discussion of kilt wear in a modern era fragmented over two forums.

I would suggest that posts about "completely non-traditional" kilts continue to appear in the Modern Kilt Wear forum, and that members who insist on deriding modern kilts be ignored.

[TheBlueCow]

I have always thought of this (sub-)forum as one for talking about kilts in a style such as the Utilikilt, Alt.Kilt, Alpha Kilt, X-Kilt, etc. and other such modern interpretations of kilts and kilt wear such as non-traditional jackets, or sporrans, sporran alternatives, boots, etc. which may look less out of place in contemporary fashion. Casual kilt wear can be similar to this idea where you might wear a t-shirt, boots, and hose pushed down, but obviously it only concentrates on CASUAL wearing of the (modern OR traditional style) kilt. Whereas modern kilt wear can still be dressy, but not traditional.

I was recently at a friend's wedding and was invited to wear a kilt (a Utilikilt) if I wished. Whether I wore pants or a kilt, the rest of the outfit would have remained largely the same and still would have conformed to the business casual dress code; that is, the kilt would have been worn as a pants-replacement in a completely modern-attire outfit.

I would say the reason that a lot of the pictures and topics some of you would like to see here actually end up in General Kilt Talk is because that is where people talk about how they generally wear the kilt... which would of course be how they wear it everyday (i.e. modernly/casually). So that really just leaves the strictly non-traditional style Utilikilts, Freedom Kilts, Alpha Kilts, etc., and the very "modern" accessories, to be discussed in Modern Kilt Wear.

[Dale Seago]

I would say the reason that a lot of the pictures and topics some of you would like to see here actually end up in General Kilt Talk is because that is where people talk about how they generally wear the kilt... which would of course be how they wear it everyday (i.e. modernly/casually). So that really just leaves the strictly non-traditional style Utilikilts, Freedom Kilts, Alpha Kilts, etc., and the very "modern" accessories, to be discussed in Modern Kilt Wear.

I think you may well be right.

[Dale Seago]

There are many people who choose to wear the modern kilt in what is deemed a traditional fashion. These folks like to maintain a semblance of history in their attire and of course go about daily with a nice air of nastalgia about them. There is absolutely nothing wrong in any way with that at all. After all it's a free world ( to a degree ) and people are free to wear thier modern kilts made in a traditional style however they like.

The rest of us choose to wear our modern kilts made in a contemporary style in a way much akin to the average fashion that one would wear trousers with. And there is absolutely nothing in any way wrong with this styling at all either. There is nothing any more modern to the way we wear the kilt then there is by those who label themselves as traditionalists. As we are not changing the kilt, simply using it as something to cover our lower halves in much the same way that the historical highlander might have done. I would reference this article as it goes a long way in showing my idea of what the kilt is.
http://living.scotsman.com/features/...day.6783167.jp

Don't forget that for some of us, "It's ALL good!!"

I'm perfectly comfortable in feileadh mor or feileadh beag with 1740s jacket & waistcoat, shirt, neck stock, dirk, buckled shoes, etc.

I'm equally comfortable in a contemporary tailored to measure handmade tartan kilt and Harris Tweed Argyle jacket & waistcoat, tie, sgian dubh, etc.

Or hiking the hills in a safari shirt and a Buzz Kidder canvas kilt or a Stillwater acrylic with a SWK nylon cargo sporran. Perhaps with a leather bomber jacket or a good wool commando sweater if it's a windy/chilly day.

I love it all.

[Jock Scot]

While on the other hand this is a Native Born Scot, living in Scotland, wearing a Scottish made kilt.

Hummm, I knew choosing 1980 as the demarcation line between traditional and modern was a mistake and would come back and haunt us and I said so at the time.Traditional kilts-----traditional anything---fishing tackle is a classic case in point-----are not frozen in time, they evolve, perhaps slowly and often in subtle ways and there is a real danger of being too precise about these things and I am afraid that it is also not very helpful in "our" kilt world to be so. Many here, see things solely in "black and white" which can and does make things unnecessarily complicated when having an Internet discussion!

On the whole I think pictures prove very little as they only prove that "something" happened at that split second of time and who knows what happened just before and just after the picture was taken and the reason -----there could be many and that are not obvious to the viewer later.Unhelpful and inaccurate conclusions can and are very easily drawn from pictures, interesting though they may be.

Right then Steve's picture. Even to my old traditional eyes Steve is casually and traditionally dressed for the 21 century. It is not what my father would call casual, but then, some 50 years have passed since his time. So alright Steve's kilt has hidden pockets and Steve is wearing a tie, no jacket though----something that my father's generation would have difficulty with, but these days is generally accepted as casual-------------and traditional.

The other fellow is a mess!But then he appears to have been working and looking at his sharpest would be difficult no doubt, he is wearing a tie though.Also work clothes are not generally noted for sartorial elegance either. Nevertheless just looking at his kilt(in truth, I personally have difficulty calling it that) it is pushing the boundaries. There is nothing wrong with that, but for now, his kilt cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as traditional. Maybe in time, who knows when, it may be, or maybe not.

The real problem is defining these things and as this interesting thread is illustrating wonderfully it is a difficult thing to be too precise over.I think much of this is down to the Internet where things are not allowed to evolve over time, a lot of time perhaps. The new is there for all to see at an instant, impressions, good or bad, are given and positions on point of view inevitably and quickly follow.

The unarguably "modern" version of what goes under the heading of a kilt makes no pretensions to be anything other than modern with, studs, pockets, non tartan,non tweed,buckles, chains etc, and it matters not one jot whether I and others like them. Some people do and who am I to tell them otherwise, unless invited to comment on their choice of course. However, general comment, firmly voiced even, is fair game on this and any matter, as long as it is courteously put.

Each to their own.

[The Wizard of BC]

An interesting response Jock, Actually in the photo you quote my jacket is over the back of a chair just out of the frame. This is, even by your standards, permissible as the vest is finished in the back and suitable for wear sans jacket. And especially as this photo is not in public but was taken on an enclosed and covered patio where two friends are sharing a pint.

And of all people I would have thought you would recognize Howie Nicklesby of 21st Century Kilts located in Edinburgh and who an article is about on another but current thread.



The reason that the 1980's was chosen for the starting date for this forum section is because it is truly when things began to change with the wearing of the kilt. Between the period of Edward VII and the 1980's there was only one kilt. The type popularized and standardized by the military. Over the years all the myths and 'rules' developed and by the 1950's and 60's there was so much myth and so many 'rules' that the kilt was dying as a daily piece of clothing. It was relegated to pipe bands, military parades and the odd wedding.
The Prince Charlie coatee and the Argyle Jacket come from military uniforms. Spats, and pipers plaids come from pipe bands. (As do white hose by the way.)

Then, within a very short time frame everything changed.

Howie Nicklesby began to make Traditional style, hand-sewn, 8 yard kilts from non-traditional fabrics. Camo and sliver lame.

At about the same time, half way around the world, Steven Villagas cut the crotch out of a pair of cargo shorts and created the MUG.

These two events opened the eyes of the world. No longer did we feel bound and restricted to the quasi military uniform or the matchy-matchy world of the pipe band.

Since the day that Howie and Steven showed us that the kilt could again be worn as everyday clothing, and not costume reserved for special occasions, a renaissance has transformed how the kilt is worn. We are here today, talking about kilts, because of what these two did then. There are far more people wearing the kilt today, and wearing them everyday, than before the 1980's.

I was recently the keynote speaker at two full formal military events. Black Tie with full ribbons and medals was specified on the invitations. I dressed in full Prince Charlie and all the traditional accessories as required by the level of formality of the event.
But today I dressed for my regular rounds at the Royal BC Museum and wore my Victoria, City of Gardens Kilt (with pockets) a dark green shirt from my closet and my normal penny loafers. I wore clothes.

This is what this section of the forum is for. It is where those of us who wear the kilt as normal everyday clothing can find advice, help and inspiration to wear the kilt as clothing, overcoming the myths and rules of a world we don't belong to.



There is a very good current thread titled "kilt tops accessories" in the General Kilt Talk section that would fit here very well. It talks about the kilt worn without the myth and rules and yet remaining a kilt.


We who post here are not rebelling by breaking the rules; we are recognizing that the rules of pipe bands and the military do not apply, or may be wrong, to wearing the kilt on a daily basis as simple clothing.

This section is for those of us who know the rules of the Traditional Kilt section and realize that the rules may not apply to our circumstances.

This section is also for the Alt.Kilt wearer and the Stillwater kilt wearer.

And it is for those who choose to ignore the rules and make their own fashion statement.


For someone from the strict Traditional world to post in the Modern Kilt Wear section and say " On the whole I think pictures prove very little" is strange, as on this forum "No Pics, it didn't happen." is the rule. I share those pics as examples of modern kilt wear in the Modern Kilt Wear section of the forum.

You also say of Howie "his kilt cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as traditional." Well, gee wiz, that's the point here. Howie is not and does not intend to be traditional. I think you are missing the point with your post entirely.


This is the Modern Kilt Wear section of the forum. We are not trying, and failing, to wear our kilts in the Traditional manner as you would. We are trying, and succeeding, to wear the kilt as part of our everyday clothing.

One statement you make in your post is very true. You said "and it matters not one jot whether I and others like them."

But then you follow it with, "However, general comment, firmly voiced even, is fair game on this and any matter, as long as it is courteously put." This, I'm sorry, is not true here, asked for, or welcome. We already know that you do not approve of our kilts or how we wear them.

I would never presume to post in the Historical Kilt Wear or the Traditional Kilt Wear sections of the forum (or anywhere else for that matter) denigrating your choice. I would never direct the disparaging comments you have made here, towards how you choose to wear the kilt. Please show us the same courtesy.