Third Buckle/Strap

[Paul Henry]

Thanks Chas, you are right! I didn't look close enough, mine have the same fringing from top to bottom, oops, my mistake! I should have know this already!!!

So, what is the best way to remove the strap and buckle? I also have belt loops, is there proper way to remove them as well? I do have a sharp pointed thread picker that tailors use, will that work?

Thanks,

A thread picker is fine,generally better that scissors for this sort of thing, but you still have to be careful not to catch threads on the face of the fabric.

For the belt loops, sometimes the loops will have been sewn into the waistband, that makes it a little harder as you might have to unpick some of the waistband as well. It's all perfectly straightforward, just go slowly and patiently!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I actually have a blog post from some time back about why many kilts today are made with that third strap.
http://kiltmaker.blogspot.com/2005/0...lt-straps.html

As for me, I see it as basically useless and I don't have it on any of my kilts, nor do I put it on any kilts I make, unless the client just absolutely has to have one (hasn't happened yet).

[creagdhubh]

A thread picker is fine,generally better that scissors for this sort of thing, but you still have to be careful not to catch threads on the face of the fabric.

For the belt loops, sometimes the loops will have been sewn into the waistband, that makes it a little harder as you might have to unpick some of the waistband as well. It's all perfectly straightforward, just go slowly and patiently!

Thanks Paul! It does seem rather straightforward, I just don't want to harm my kilt if I do in fact begin the process.

Cheers,

[Tobus]

I like the two-strap style better than the three-strappers, too, and I also like the way Matt Newsome makes his kilts. The left strap fastens to a buckle inside the kilt, so there is no "buttonhole" for the strap to pass through. You might want to investigate that option with your kiltmaker.

My latest acquisition (a SHO 4-yard box pleat) has that same style internal buckle on the left hip. I don't care for it, and would rather have it on the outside.

For starters, it seems more difficult to put on. With the external buckle, and the strap passing through a "button-hole", I can let the apron hang there on the strap while I fish the end of the strap into the buckle and get it adjusted. With the internal style, though, there's nothing to support the outer apron while I'm putting it on. It hangs from way around on my left side, at the point where the strap is stitched to the fabric. I need three hands: two for buckling the strap, and one for holding the apron. It's just awkward.

But also, if for some reason I want to adjust the left hip strap a notch tighter or looser at some point, I have to undo everything to get to it. An external strap is much easier to get to for adjustment.

And lastly, by moving it inside, there's less fabric between your hip and the buckle itself, which means less padding. I'm not going to say it's uncomfortable with it inside (I haven't noticed any discomfort), but I could see potential for it being less comfortable having the buckle inside rather than outside.

I just don't understand the purpose of putting it inside. If it's a matter of not wanting it to show, well, OK. Most people wear belts or otherwise have that area of the kilt covered by a waistcoat/jacket/whatever. So I really don't see why it's worth the additional hassle to have it inside unless one doesn't wear anything over that part of the kilt and is overly sensitive to having a visible buckle.

Can someone explain to me the reason they are being made this way? Surely there's an advantage that I'm not seeing.

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As for the "third" buckle on the right hip, I apparently am in the minority. I like it. Rather than the entire kilt just hanging from the top, the third buckle helps it be more of a form-fit to the shape of my hips. And yes, if you tighten it too much, it will pull things out of whack. But just a slight bit of snugness on that lower buckle, in my opinion, makes my kilt fit better to me. It also reduced outer apron flopping (which isn't that big of an issue with a 16-oz wool kilt, but definitely was on my old PV kilt that didn't have a third buckle).

Plus, I just like the looks of the third buckle. The top two are normally hidden by a belt, and I like to see the lower hip buckle exposed. It just makes the kilt look like more of a man's garment, having a leather strap and metal buckle showing, as opposed to just fabric.

[Lyle1]

I only have two kilts, one with two buckles and one with three. I prefer only having two buckles, with one inside. I do not find it difficult buckle the inside straps, but maybe because my first kilt was made that way, and that's what I learned to do. I do think that a belt fits better with the buckle under the apron.

My kilt that has three buckles was purchased on the vintage market, and it could be about an inch bigger (OK, maybe two!) in the waist. With the lower buckle on the right side buckled, the apron pulls across my lower stomach if I am not careful. While it is an incentive to lose a few pounds, I will be using strap extenders.

[longhuntr74]

I just don't understand the purpose of putting it inside. If it's a matter of not wanting it to show, well, OK. Most people wear belts or otherwise have that area of the kilt covered by a waistcoat/jacket/whatever. So I really don't see why it's worth the additional hassle to have it inside unless one doesn't wear anything over that part of the kilt and is overly sensitive to having a visible buckle.

Can someone explain to me the reason they are being made this way? Surely there's an advantage that I'm not seeing.

Tobus...I absolutely can explain why!!

Firstly, I don't see where it's any harder to put on...I guess I really don't understand why you need to hold the apron while you're buckling the strap? That being said...I can appreciate your preference for one style over the other and your point about being able to tighten/loosen your kilt is very valid.

Now to answer your question:

That style of system was implemented due to an alignment problem that occurs when making a box pleated or casual kilt with wide pleats. In a traditional tank, you leave a slot in your second pleat to pass the strap through. The location of this slot is ideal and allows you to buckle evenly on both sides.

When the pleats become 2" wide, if you wanted to use that same technique, the slot would either be halfway around your back or you'd have to cut a hole through the middle of your pleat and then sew in some sort of bound buttonhole type of arrangement. Therefore, instead of cutting through the kilt, an alternate method was developed (not sure if this was something that Matt Newsome invented or if it draws from old examples?). As I've implied, even if you're making a box pleat, you certainly could cut that hole and make the slot...it just requires extra work in the stabilizer/canvas/lining stages to finish it and such.

When I make my next kilt (a 6 yarder), I'll have to decide whether I can use the second pleat gap technique or whether I need to "create" a slot. This will be based on pleat width. Regardless, I think I will be going with your preferred arrangement of the traditional outer buckle. I have nothing against the other arrangement, but prefer the symmetry of the traditional method.

[Paul Henry]

Most people find the third buckle unneccessary, as several have already said here, it's most likely a throwback to military kilts which had a much higher rise, and the two buckles were needed to make the kilt fit well. These days the lower buckle just isn't needed to hold the kilt against the body. Many people still enjoy wearing a kilt with 3 buckles, but on the few occasions a client has asked me to put that buckle on, within a few months, they come back and ask me to remove it.
On the inner buckle arrangement, several of us who make kilts chose that way of working,It's got nothing to do with the style of pleating, and I really don't see how it can be more difficult to put on, perhaps the first time, but after that it really can't be much of a problem surely.It's not Matt's creation, it does come from older ideas,infact some ladies skirts in the 1930's were fastened in the same way, so not that modern an idea either. I think Matt learnt it from Bob Martin.
I like the fact the buckle is hidden on the inside, it's a clean look, but in any case whatever style of left side buckle is used it would almost certainy be hidden by a belt

[creagdhubh]

As for the "third" buckle on the right hip, I apparently am in the minority. I like it. Rather than the entire kilt just hanging from the top, the third buckle helps it be more of a form-fit to the shape of my hips. And yes, if you tighten it too much, it will pull things out of whack. But just a slight bit of snugness on that lower buckle, in my opinion, makes my kilt fit better to me. It also reduced outer apron flopping (which isn't that big of an issue with a 16-oz wool kilt, but definitely was on my old PV kilt that didn't have a third buckle).

Plus, I just like the looks of the third buckle. The top two are normally hidden by a belt, and I like to see the lower hip buckle exposed. It just makes the kilt look like more of a man's garment, having a leather strap and metal buckle showing, as opposed to just fabric.

Extremely valid point(s) Tobus. I am at a bit of dilemma, indecisive I guess. I am not sure if I want to remove the third strap and buckle from my kilts, partly because I am terribly afraid of harming my kilts, and partly simply because I kind of like the look as well, or am I just accustomed to it? I never really gave it much thought in the past. All of my kilts were made by Kinloch-Anderson and came standard with the third strap and buckle, and I never requested only two, as I was a wee bit ignorant of that aspect of kilt tailoring. Should I remove the third buckle on one of my 8 yard, 16 ounce tanks and see how I like it, then go from there? Can someone say, indecisive? Perhaps I should send a kilt to Matthew Newsome and have him remove the third strap and buckle for a reasonable fee, so I don't mess my kilt up?! Not trying to make a huge deal about the issue, but what am I to do?!



Many thanks,

[Tobus]

I am not sure if I want to remove the third strap and buckle from my kilts, partly because I am terribly afraid of harming my kilts, and partly simply because I kind of like the look as well, or am I just accustomed to it? I never really gave it much thought in the past.

...

Not trying to make a huge deal about the issue, but what am I to do?!

I guess the important question is why you want to remove them. If you're used to the third strap/buckle and not having any problems, why remove it?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

My latest acquisition (a SHO 4-yard box pleat) has that same style internal buckle on the left hip. I don't care for it, and would rather have it on the outside.

For starters, it seems more difficult to put on. With the external buckle, and the strap passing through a "button-hole", I can let the apron hang there on the strap while I fish the end of the strap into the buckle and get it adjusted. With the internal style, though, there's nothing to support the outer apron while I'm putting it on. It hangs from way around on my left side, at the point where the strap is stitched to the fabric. I need three hands: two for buckling the strap, and one for holding the apron. It's just awkward.

But also, if for some reason I want to adjust the left hip strap a notch tighter or looser at some point, I have to undo everything to get to it. An external strap is much easier to get to for adjustment.

And lastly, by moving it inside, there's less fabric between your hip and the buckle itself, which means less padding. I'm not going to say it's uncomfortable with it inside (I haven't noticed any discomfort), but I could see potential for it being less comfortable having the buckle inside rather than outside.

I just don't understand the purpose of putting it inside. If it's a matter of not wanting it to show, well, OK. Most people wear belts or otherwise have that area of the kilt covered by a waistcoat/jacket/whatever. So I really don't see why it's worth the additional hassle to have it inside unless one doesn't wear anything over that part of the kilt and is overly sensitive to having a visible buckle.

Can someone explain to me the reason they are being made this way? Surely there's an advantage that I'm not seeing.
.

I'm not doubting your experience, but please allow me to share my own. Kilts with an external left buckle are certainly the norm, but having owned and worn both styles for years, I can honestly say I do not find either one more difficult to put on than the other, and I can feel absolutely zero difference between the two when I am wearing the kilts.

So why do it?

I first started doing it as a "neat feature" of my kilts. The idea was taught to me by Bob Martin, and he himself saw it used on a kilt from the 79th New York Cameron Highlanders he examined in the Gettysburg Museum. Remember, these kilts were made by New York City dress makers, who had no training as "Scottish kilt makers." The straps they used were actually made from the same tartan cloth as the kilts. And they used an interior fastening structure for the inner apron.

So Bob started to mimic this system with the leather straps of today. And he showed it to me. It just seemed interesting for my "nineteenth century" style box pleated kilts to have a unique strap and buckle arrangement that dated to the nineteenth century, as well.

However, since using that system almost universally for some 500 kilts now, I do have to say I see some advantages to it. And the primary advantage comes when making future alterations to the kilt.

Let's say you need your kilt taken in by 2". No problem. I remove the inside strap, and the outside buckle, and sew them each back on exactly 2" from their original position. Easy-peasy.

It's not quite that clean-cut with the more usual exterior arrangement which requires a button-hole. That button-hole is a stationary feature of the kilt. You can't move the hole (not without some major retailoring of the kilt). So any alterations must work around it. What that would mean, in my above example, is that the leather strap on the inside apron would be resewn in 2" farther from the edge of the apron, which would either mean some significant overhang on the apron edge, or you'd have to rehem the apron itself.

To me, it just makes alterations easier with my method. But to each his own!