Difference Between US Marine Corps Tartan & Leatherneck Tartan

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I would suggest that we are overthinking this issue a bit. What we have here is not a case of two different tartans recorded with the STA, but the same single tartan recorded twice, under two different names.

Without talking with Brian Wilton (STA Director) I can only guess why, but my assumption would be so that there would be an entry both under the name US Marine Corps and Leatherneck, in order to make the tartan more easily found in the search engines.

Indeed, just from looking at the numbers of the tartans, I can tell you that No. 975 was added early on in the original Scottish Tartan Society database, and No. 3612 would have been added much later by the Scottish Tartans Authority (the old STS database never got that high in numbers).

I note that it is the latter tartan that is called "Leatherneck" and that record was most likely added because of the frequency of which the USMC tartan is called by that name. They would have wanted it to be found under "Leatherneck" if anyone went looking for it.

Why there is a slight color difference is anyone's guess. My theory would be that when the second record was created they were going off of an actual woven sample. Certainly the software they were using to input the record at the time would have allowed whomever entered the data a wider range of color options. If memory serves, the original STS software was fairly limited in those terms.

But as has been pointed out, the thread counts are exactly the same in both cases. And the STA does not go about recording every minor color variation of each tartan, otherwise there would need to be a different entry for the modern, ancient, muted, weathered, etc., from each of the woolen mills, as they each have their own different color palette they use, etc. It would be a nightmare.

The color difference in the two samples Steve posted can simply be chalked up to the fact that the samples were woven by two different mills. This would be true of most any tartan.

The same can be said about the slight variation in width on some of the stripes. This happens more often than one might think. For example, here are two samples of the ancient Armstrong tartan, one woven by Lochcarron, the other by House of Edgar.



Note the difference in widths of the wide black stripe. Why would mills do this? I suggest it is not a matter of "poor quality control" but may in fact be something done intentionally in order to distinguish their product from another company's. Why would someone choose tartan woven by one mill over another? Perhaps they like that mill's colors better? Perhaps they like the way that mill laid out the proportions of the tartan better? If every mill wove every tartan identically, there could be no competition between them.

And remember that the thread counts recorded for tartans are not absolute. They are to give an indication of the pattern and the general proportions. I don't think any observer would have a problem looking at both samples that Steve posted pictures of and identifying them as the Leatherneck tartan, despite the minor color differences and the different widths of the red stripes.

So let's not loose too much sleep over this, shall we? :-)

[creagdhubh]

Quite right, Matt!

[Geoff Withnell]

Just for fun, when I get home tonight, I'm going to compare my Barb Tewksbury Leatherneck box pleat (I'm not sure what mill made it, Barb had the fabric on hand), and my Stillwater Heavyweight (also wool, but not a Scottish mill) Leatherneck. I'll post pictures.

[thescot]

Everyone can say what they want, but I asked the actual designer of the Leathernck tartan, and this is what he said (I take it as authoritative):

"I tried to log in but it gave me problems. my user name is tartanmarine. With a FT management job, I don't have time to mess with it.

In any case, there is no USMC Tartan. Can't be unless the USMC approves. I'm the designer of the Leatherneck Tartan, with input from Rory MacLeod of the Scottish Tartans Society. I submitted a design to the STS back in the 1980s. Rory suggested two changes, one of which I accepted, one of which I changed further. The pictures just show weavers using different hues.

Some dealers refer to it as the USMC Tartan, helps sales, but incorrect.

It is an open tartan, anyone may weave & sell, no royalty to me. Just honor to my Corps."

As I said earlier, there really is no "USMC" tartan unless someone else registered it or the Authority decided to name it that and change the name of one of the colors used, which it appears they did. Piperdbh is right; they're the same with varying shdes of colors, and, it looks to me, some weavers decided to monkey with the thread count on some of them. I guess that means they're not woven a true Leatherneck, but a slight variation of it.

Surely we've all seen other tartans which were not exactly the same shade before this. If not, do a little comparing at the next clan gathering you attend.

[Geoff Withnell]

As promised, Barb's box pleat and the Stillwater heavyweight:



Based on both the color and red stripe widths, I believe Barb used the Strathmore. I haven't done a count, but the Stillwater has equal width red stripes, but the blue and green stripes seem smaller, an=s the squares bordered by the gold stripes seem somewhat smaller relative to the gold stripes.

[davidlpope]

As promised, Barb's box pleat and the Stillwater heavyweight:



Based on both the color and red stripe widths, I believe Barb used the Strathmore. I haven't done a count, but the Stillwater has equal width red stripes, but the blue and green stripes seem smaller, an=s the squares bordered by the gold stripes seem somewhat smaller relative to the gold stripes.

Not sure, but it looks like Barb used Dalgliesh fabric to me.

As far as I know there are six mills that have woven this tartan:

Strathmore
Dalgliesh
Lochcarron
Robert Noble
Whoever weaves for Stillwater
Whoever weaves for Sportkilt

I've always taken the stance that minor variations in thread count or colors don't create a different tartan. I think that the STA is right. These are the same tartan. I wish they hadn't registered them separately under different names.

See these threads for related discussion:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...0/#post1033301
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-album-68835/

[M. A. C. Newsome]

it looks to me, some weavers decided to monkey with the thread count on some of them. I guess that means they're not woven a true Leatherneck, but a slight variation of it.

I think you missed my point, Jim. A minor variation in the thread count like what we see here would still constitute "the Leatherneck tartan." No one would think of calling it "a variation of the Leatherneck tartan." To me, that would suggest a weaver changed the blue to brown, or something more substantial such as that, but otherwise kept the pattern the same.

But what we see here is simply a weave deciding to use 4 threads rather than 6 and that sort of minor variation. This sort of thing happens all the time, with any number of tartans, and is just part of the industry.

[thescot]

I think you missed my point, Jim. A minor variation in the thread count like what we see here would still constitute "the Leatherneck tartan." No one would think of calling it "a variation of the Leatherneck tartan." To me, that would suggest a weaver changed the blue to brown, or something more substantial such as that, but otherwise kept the pattern the same.

But what we see here is simply a weave deciding to use 4 threads rather than 6 and that sort of minor variation. This sort of thing happens all the time, with any number of tartans, and is just part of the industry.

Actually, I wrote mine before I read yours, so I didn't really know your point.

I will certainly bow to your expertise as to the patois of things tartan; my point was that it was exacltly what you say: a weaver changed the thread count on some of the stripes, which seem to me to "vary" the actual product from its recorded thread count. I agree; it's still the Leatherneck tartan which is what Bob and God intended.

As a mathmetician, I would say it's not a Leatheneck with 4 instead of 6 threads; the engineer in me says that it's close enough for practical purposes.

The recording of a "USMC" or "US Marine Corps" is not what the designer or our Lord intended. There is only the Leatherneck, and until the Commandant decides otherwise, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[Mickey]

the engineer in me says that it's close enough for practical purposes.

I have never in my life heard those words out of an engineer, and I've worked with the best of them! You sir, are a technician at heart

[mookien]

... I will certainly bow to your expertise as to the patois of things tartan; my point was that it was exacltly what you say: a weaver changed the thread count on some of the stripes, which seem to me to "vary" the actual product from its recorded thread count. I agree; it's still the Leatherneck tartan which is what Bob and God intended.

As a mathmetician, I would say it's not a Leatheneck with 4 instead of 6 threads; the engineer in me says that it's close enough for practical purposes. ...

I believe the tartan world would benefit if it conformed to Jim's "mathematician side", ie if the ratio of the numbers in a threadcount change, then it should be considered a different tartan.

Advantages would include a loss of ambiguity and the elimination of boggy discussions like this one, and an earlier one on the differences between two U.S. Air Force tartans - the Lady Jane and Strathmore's "US Air Force (Not Official)" tartan. For those masochists on the blog, see the post

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-tartan-70031/


Relevant to this discussion, the SRT states ...

"Your new tartan must be both unique and 'sufficiently different' to all tartans already recorded in the Register. Sufficiently different means that it must be possible to clearly differentiate your tartan from all the other thousands of tartans already recorded, distinguishable by eye at a distance of approximately 2m (6ft). In practice this means that

* the geometry of a design must be sufficiently different, ie. the blocks of solid colours and the mixtures used in a design must be arranged in a different pattern to all other designs already recorded.
* a new tartan will use different colours in substantially different proportions and ordered differently to all tartans already recorded. Changing the shades of the colours used is insufficient to differentiate a new design since tartans are traditionally recorded in the base colours of red, yellow, green, blue, brown, grey, black and white. Any shade of blue will still be recorded as blue, likewise green etc.
* over-check(s) or additional stripe(s) in contrasting colour(s) can be added to create a new tartan, providing the over-check or stripe is clearly visible when woven.

The following changes to an existing sett will not create a new tartan that is 'sufficiently different':

* increasing or diminishing the size of the sett (the pattern). Threadcounts are frequently expanded or diminished for use in kilts or ties etc whilst retaining the essential proportions and geometry of the original design.
* changing the shade of the colours used. Tartan setts are compared according to their base colours as the final shade of the woven fabric will depend on the wools available to the weaver. Therefore, for example, light blue, navy blue and purple are all considered to be blue and changing the shade from light to dark blue will not change the basic pattern.

In reaching a view on whether a design is unique and sufficiently different to all others already recorded, the Keeper may consult such persons as he considers appropriate."

Thus, as I read the above, tartan uniqueness is preserved under (de)magnification, and a color-shading rule that appears to be just left of "whoopie!".

Of course the last sentence gives the Keeper LOTS of leeway to decide whether a new tartan is unique, or not, eg post a query on XMTS and let the gentlefolk decide.


If you are still reading and interested at this point, check out the difference between HoE's Stewart Hunting Modern tartan in heavyweight available from the drop-down menu at

http://www.houseofedgar.com/acatalog...tock_Clan.html

and the same (?) tartan in regimental weight at

http://www.houseofedgar.com/acatalog/Tartans1.html

In the latter incarnation it appears to have a wider red stripe than yellow stripe, similar to the 4
to 6 thread change that Jim wrote about - "close enough for practical purposes".