Saltire kilt's tartan??

[Paul Henry]

FM, I not sure I'm exactly following you here, you seem to be suggesting that it would be possible to make a saltire design on the pleated portion of the kilt by careful pleating using the Saltire Tartan (6152)
the "Saltire" sett tartan which was specifically designed to be able to accomplish something similar when the kilt is pleated "just so", which I believe it could accomplish.
This would not be possible as you cannot change to horizontal positioning of the tartan stripes in order to make the large diagonal cross, and I don't believe that the tartan as registered was ever designed to accomplish the cross as you suggest but more likely as the background to the rather more clever weaving.
As Matt has said the fabric is specially woven with small section of white bands in strategic places to enable to pleats to be done in a "Saltire" shape. when I visited Hamish last year I did indeed have a look at his saltire kilt as I was fascinated by it as well.
Perhaps I've misinterpeted your meaning,but I can't see what you are getting at if you're not content with Matt's answer, and as an aside would it be possible for you to resize the image as it's throwing the page size and making reading the posting difficult without scrolling sideways....

[The Wizard of BC]

Forester Modern,

Jackson's kilt is the one I was referring to previously. I already have photo's of it.

Once you see how the fabric is woven to create this effect you will understand how it is done for the Saltire.

and a note. The #6152 is the same Tartan that makes the Saltire. The kilts you see pictures of are woven with darker colors than those shown on the SCA and DC Dalgliesh's site.

The secret is that the 'special' white bands that create the cross are not woven in the section of the cloth that is used for the aprons.

When this fabric is woven it is done in one kilt section at a time. I'm not saying that they only weave one kilt's worth at a time but more that they start weaving the aprons without the white bands, then they weave the section for the pleats with the white bands, and them contiue weaving the other apron without the bands. They repeat this as many times as necessary to get the yardage they want.

[sydnie7]

[snip]
When this fabric is woven it is done in one kilt section at a time. I'm not saying that they only weave one kilt's worth at a time but more that they start weaving the aprons, then they weave the section for the pleats with the white bands, and them contiue weaving the other apron. They repeat this as many times as necessary to get the yardage they want.

I've wondered about this since one of the last times these kilts were discussed. So they don't join the aprons on, rather the special white-striped area is woven "in line" with the plain apron areas? OK, I see how that's possible since there are a known number of setts required to form the Saltire. But how do they account for differences in what AlanH calls "rump" size? Do skinny guys get a condensed Saltire with lots of loss in the taper while MoS get the full Imperial width banner? Wonder if there are min/max limits to the sizes that can be created.

Just an "enquiring minds" moment.

[ForresterModern]

Jeff, I think you may be misreading Steves post. He specifically states " Along each Sett of the Tartan used for the back of the kilt there is a white bar woven in" which is pretty much the same as what Matt expanded on.

Tony

I am not misreading anything, believe me. I completely understand that these kilts pictured are made of "some" tartan that has the white bars specially woven into in such a pattern as to make the saltire when pleated appropriately, and I agree wholeheartedly with that, both as Steve describes that portion and as Matt repeats it. But Steve attributes it to STA ITI#6152, aka a tartan design specifically known as "Saltire" which itself was designed to also form a saltire pattern in the pleats when pleated a certain way. I contend that the kilts shown are NOT made from 6152 no matter whether extra white bars are sewn into a section of it or not, as the tartan pattern for 6152 as shown above does not match the tartan pattern in the aprons of the saltire kilts being shown.

I believe they are two different ways of achieving likely similar but not identical results. The saltire kilts we are seeing have a simple apron tartan pattern, and then a different but similar tartan for the pleated section that has the specially woven in and located white bars that eventually make the saltire. The STA ITI#6152 "Saltire" tartan has an entirely different threadcount from the tartan in the aprons of the above saltire kilts, so these kilts cannot be made from 6152. I believe the second way of achieving a result similar to the above shown saltire pattern in the pleats is to creatively use the 6152 tartan and, without adding any additional white bars, form the saltire in the pleats by varying the center of each pleat to a different point in the sett, i.e., pleating neither to sett or to stripe but rather to "saltire", albeit the saltire in this situation would not have angled upper and lower margins to the white "bars" as these kilts do. I just would like to see that sometime instead of these custom made versions.

j

[Tony]

I'm pretty sure you would not be able to create a saltire effect using 6152 or any other tartan for that matter. And Steve is not making that argument either....

[Paul Henry]

I'm pretty sure you would not be able to create a saltire effect using 6152 or any other tartan for that matter. And Steve is not making that argument either....

Agreed, you simply can't create a diagonal cross design from the white horizontals of the tartan, whichever registered number it might be, there is no way you can be "that creative" by whichever way you chose to pleat
I wish there was , because I'd certainly be in the market to experiment!

[RockyR]

But how do they account for differences in what AlanH calls "rump" size? Do skinny guys get a condensed Saltire with lots of loss in the taper while MoS get the full Imperial width banner? Wonder if there are min/max limits to the sizes that can be created.

Just an "enquiring minds" moment.

I'll jump in on this one...

They DON'T. The tartan is actually woven by HOE, but they can't sell it to anyone EXCEPT "The Tartan Centre" (aka Heritage of Scotland). As a kiltmaker, I CAN NOT buy just a length of cloth... I have to purchase a finished kilt (I know b/c we used to sell the kilts). They are made to standard 6" difference between waist and hips. They also do NOT have a hip strap on the kilts to allow the apron to 'move' a bit in case of a bigger than 6" difference. The straps themselves are 1.5" wide and are roughly 8" long (to allow for a wider range of sizes for retailers). They have a basket weave pattern on the straps... you can see it in one of FM's pics.

I've SEEN the cloth laid out (when I took a tour of HOE's facility), and you can see a little white spot on every repeat (in what will be the pleated section). Pretty neat.

BTW, when the gentleman who came up with the idea (which HOE helped him do) copyrighted the design and went to the STA to register it, they couldn't register the white 'X' in the pleats, so they just registered the tartan ITSELF. STA ITI#6152 "Saltire" tartan is the correct ITI # for this kilt. Their software can't re-produce the X.

[The Wizard of BC]

OK, here you go.

Jackson has the Rampant Lion Kilt which he showed a few posts above. Well, he had this in the shop and I wanted to see how this type of weaving is done.

The technique for this pattern is the same as that used for the Saltire kilt.

Both fabrics are woven by HOE and sold as kilts by Heritage of Scotland.



Here is the back of the Rampant Lion Kilt showing the full pattern as it is seen across the back.



This kilt is a bit different than the Saltire in that if you want to make this one larger or smaller you simply add or take out pleats on either side of the Lion pattern.
In the Saltire kilt you can remove or add pleats on either side of the cross and also increase or decrease the width of the pleats as needed.

Here is a close-up of the patterned area opened up a bit.



Notice that the pattern is created by blocks of different colors woven into the fabric. Both the Saltire and the Rampant Lion kilts are pleated to the stripe.
The Saltire is pleated to the lighter color vertical bands you see in the aprons.
The Rampant Lion is "pleated to no stripe".


Here is a single pleat showing the section that makes up the pattern.





And here are a few pleats laid out so you can see how this is done.



This kilt is also a bit different that the Saltire in that the part of the fabric used for the pleats is not Tartan. The horizontal pattern is not repeated vertically.

In this kilt there are no joins in the fabric. As I said before these Tartans are woven in long lengths but the patten is woven for one kilt at a time.
They start weaving the plain tartan till they have enough for the first apron. They they weave the part used in the pleats. Finally they weave the plain Tartan again for the other apron. They then repeat the process as many times as needed.

[ForresterModern]

I have resized the Scotweb image for the 6152 tartan in my previous post.

I do understand that the fabric as woven may be in darker colors than the digital Dalgleish/Scotweb image, but I still cannot see the sett pattern in that sample being the same as that in the aprons of the saltire kilts shown in any of the pictures, particularly not the ones with the rampant lions in them. 6152 clearly has two white stripes close to one another separated by and flanked by dark blue on a slightly lighter blue field, and I am just not seeing that pattern in the aprons, certainly not in the relative sizes/proportions shown in the computer generated "swatch". I work with my eyes and have a pretty keen eye for detail and my eyes and brain cannot remedy these apparent (to me at least) discrepancies. But I guess if I am the only one seeing it that maybe my medication levels are low or I need to blame it on some chemical experimentation back in the 70s coming back to haunt me.

As I said I understand how ANY tartan could theoretically have the extra white segmental bars woven into the fabric in such a way as to achieve the saltire pattern when properly pleated, and I agree with how that is being done in these kilts. I guess I don't understand why the "Saltire" 6152 tartan is anything special in that regard, if the pattern of the tartan itself really has nothing directly to do with the formation of the saltire. I was assuming from the STA description of the tartan (including a very specific thread count):

"Designed by Claire Donaldson of The House of Edgar. When pleated in a kilt this pattern forms the Saltire – the Scottish flag."

that the tartan all by itself would form a saltire when pleated appropriately, not that it was going to require some additional fancy pattern weaving on top of the basic tartan to accomplish that claim. Heck, they could accomplish that with just a little screen-printing on a finished product, and a lot cheaper I bet when compared to having to set up/program a loom to weave each individual kilt length of tartan in either single width or mirrored double width fabric. But then I guess that would not be true wool tartan, although this seems only slightly better.

After some extended thought I guess it would really be impossible to make a simple symmetric horizontal and vertical tartan ever form anything resembling an angled appearance no matter how you tried to be creative with the pleating, as the horizontals and the verticals would never vary their positions. But I might have to think on that some more.

Thanks for being patient with me as I have worked my way through the parts of this process that I do understand, and have learned to simply tolerate the parts that I just cannot remedy/understand. Sorry for any trouble I may have caused with my ignorance.

[Paul Henry]

snip...

After some extended thought I guess it would really be impossible to make a simple symmetric horizontal and vertical tartan ever form anything resembling an angled appearance no matter how you tried to be creative with the pleating, as the horizontals and the verticals would never vary their positions. But I might have to think on that some more.

...snip

FM,
No matter how many times you think on this, there is no way anyone can be as creative as to make the lines on a woven piece of cloth change their position with out cutting and seaming, it simply can't be done.

Thank you Rocky for the extra bit of information about the recording of this tartan on the Register, I imagined it must be just a bit of information that wasn't included