Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[Chas]

A totally non-scientific observation.



If we number these from the top, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

1 & 2 - Look like all my kilts. No. 2 for preference.

5 - Don't know that I have ever seen.

6 - Tend to look like No.2

3 & 4 - All the ones I have seen tend to splay out (both single and double box). There is a visible gap between the pleats. I make no judgement as to why - made that way, incorrect measurements, added weight, lack of pressing. I don't know, but I can always tell.

As I say, non-scientific and what it all means, I don't know that either. All I know is that I can tell which is a box or double box pleated kilt, just by looking.

Regards

Chas

[David Thorpe]

Yo! Boys! You're both right, OK?
The military box pleat is a box pleat on the left edge and a knife pleat on the right.

[creagdhubh]

Yo! Boys! You're both right, OK?
The military box pleat is a box pleat on the left edge and a knife pleat on the right.

***

[Tobus]

Yo! Boys! You're both right, OK?
The military box pleat is a box pleat on the left edge and a knife pleat on the right.

LOL, that's a pretty good way of describing it!

This is all semantics, and I agree that they're both right. A military box-pleat is indeed a knife pleat with a fold-back in the end of the pleat. But it's also the exact same thing as a regular box-pleat, albeit with the inner gussets of the pleat overlapping each other instead of touching each other at the crease.

A military box-pleat really is a hybrid between the two, and both terms can describe it accurately. That said, I very much like the look of military box-pleats and have been wanting one myself!

[Paul Henry]

I've been thinking about this discussion , another way of thinking about a box pleat is that it is two knife pleats back to back, so of course all the forms of pleating are related to each other. The only reason I am keen to distinguish a standard box pleat from the Miltary one is that to make a MBP you start with a knife pleat not a box pleat, in other words the construction is different and the general feel of the making of MBP is closer to that of a knife pleated kilt.

Whether it is semantics or not, it still all about a kilt and a very handsome one at that! I;m sure we can all agree on that.

[LitTrog]

Thanks for all the responses, although with all the back-and-forth, I hope nobody's feeling particularly anti-semantic at this point. Makes me feel less foolish about my initial confusion.

I wonder if the different perspectives on maintenance offered by Woodsheal and Mr. Sushi are due to the different weights of their respective tartans. As I understand, the heavier weights maintain pleats and resist mussing better, yes?

[creagdhubh]

As I understand, the heavier weights maintain pleats and resist mussing better, yes?

Yes, I would agree with that.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

It's not my view that the MBP and the Box pleat are different, they just are!

That's precisely where I disagree. They are the same sort of pleat, just utilizing different amounts of cloth. If it is true, as you say, that they are in fact different pleating styles, then one should be able to make a "military box pleated" kilt from four yards of material and a "traditional box pleated" kilt from eight yards, correct? How would one do so?

I don't think one could, because they are in fact the same pleating style, the only difference being the amount of cloth used.

A box pleat by defintion has a "wall" on either side of the face, often that wall is up to about half the width of the face and folds under the face. The wall doesn't have to be half of the face but usually with kilts is approximately that. A Box pleat is often used with ladies skirts and in that case the walls are usually very narrow.

I am afraid I am having trouble visualizing what you mean by a "wall" in this context, so I'm not following your description here, I am sorry.

A military box pleat is a knife pleat folded over onto itself , it doesn't have 2 "walls" on either side,so it's not a box pleat by definition.Because it's formed as an further stage of knife pleating it means the pleats tend to be much narrower than a normal box pleat.

Actually, when I am sewing a kilt I always start by sewing the pleats in the same way, whether the kilt will ultimately be a box pleat or a knife pleat. Both pleats begin life looking the same. Forming the "box" in the box pleat always requires an additional step after the pleat is sewn, whether the kilt is made from four, five, six, seven or eight yards of material. The size of the pleats is a direct function of the amount of cloth used, and whether the kilt is box pleated or knife pleated makes no difference.

The ammount of cloth tends to be smaller in an historic box pleat and greater in a MBP but the actual lengths of cloth used are not particularly important, but certainly in a true military kilt there will be more fabric - 8 yards plus perahps.

I would say the amount of cloth was smaller in historic kilts period, regardless of the pleating style. Kilts were simply made with less material in earlier days. Today's military kilts are nominally eight yards, but many I have seen in person and bothered to measure out actually contained less, sometimes as little as six but often closer to seven.

I'm not doubting your experience at all or your fondness for a box pleat, but I'm merely hoping to make clear that the two forms of pleating are different,and certainly on this forum there is often confusion between the two.

I agree with your last statement here, that there is indeed a lot of confusion about this issue. I will only stress that my fondness for the box pleated kilt has nothing to do with what I am saying here, and that is that what people often refer to as "military box pleats" and "traditional/historic box pleats" are in fact the same style of pleat, only made with different amounts of cloth in the kilt.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

3 & 4 - All the ones I have seen tend to splay out (both single and double box). There is a visible gap between the pleats. I make no judgement as to why - made that way, incorrect measurements, added weight, lack of pressing. I don't know, but I can always tell.

You probably have seen a lot of knife pleated kilts with pleats splayed out, as well, but the pleating style makes it less noticeable. If the kilt fits properly, and the pleats are taken care of in terms of proper pressing, there should be no splaying. It should look like this.


Now, if the pleats go to getting a little bit wonky, with a knife pleated kilt a keen observer will surely notice the pleats are not hanging straight, but it's not overly obvious. With a box pleated kilt, because it is constructed so that the facing pleats touch each other, when they don't (leaving a gap between the pleats) it is quite apparent. This "gap" is not an issue with knife pleats, even though the pleats may in fact be splayed just as badly.

I'll also take the opportunity to point out here that the "double box pleated kilt" is an invention of Lady Chrystel and doesn't have an historical precedent. (I'm not saying that as a positive or negative, just a point of fact that you will not find such a pleating style in the historic record).

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Yo! Boys! You're both right, OK?
The military box pleat is a box pleat on the left edge and a knife pleat on the right.

Actually, no, though I do get what you are saying.

A box pleat could actually be described as a knife pleat on the right and a knife pleat on the left, just going in two directions. :-)

But when one of those pleats is much deeper than the other, it can have more of the appearance of the typical knife pleat, so I get where you are coming from.