first kilt / Flemish tartan

[docBol]

I'm amazed,amused,and horrified as well, at these suggestions, knowing many Belgians, and quite a lot of their history, neither of these suggestions would go down terrribly well with almost all the Belgians that I know!

@ both Mike_Oettle and Paul Henry

Thank you for the tips and comments. I'm actually not completely surprised there is a tartan connected with the Coburg's, as they have direct links to much of the nobility in Europe. The reason why Belgium chose these Germans as their kings was actually inspired by their direct links to many of the royal families (including the Britisch), and hence thought their suggestion would be supported by these royals. The German descent of the king is said to be the reason for the similarity in flags. Congo, on the other hand, was initially the private playground of Leopold II, who consigned it to the Belgian state afterwards after the horrors committed in his name became public knowledge. After that it was mostly settles by well off families who often weren't much nicer to the local population.

However, I am not a royalist and don't particularly feel myself to be a Belgian, so I'll pass on this one. Neither will i be looking for a tartan containing red, yellow and black.

I have resigned myself to looking for a polyviscose budget kilt online with an generic pattern just to get the feel of kilting. If i would like it I might in the future obtain some o the Flemish tartan and have a good kilt made. I'm even considering to mail the house of Edgar for a small sample of the fabric to have myself a Tie made from it (kind of like the pattern and the story behind it).

[xdepuydt]

Just an extra bit of information, I'm located in Flanders, so euro-based shops are preferred. In my search I ended up in quite a lot of us based shops, of which one sport a logo quite similar to the Flemish lion (sportkilt). They say their logo was inspired by the Scottish lion flag

Hello,


I am from Flanders too (near Gent). I speak Dutch, but as everyone on this site communicates in English, I send you my greetings in Shakespeare’s language

[docBol]

Maybe an additional question for the Tartan specialists,

I've found it mentioned that the Flemish 2531 Tartan is based on the Murray of Atholl tartan because Flemings were allowed to wear this for reasons of "friendship". What does this actually mean? Are all Flemings (as in Flemish people) allowed to wear this out of love for Scottish culture. Or Do you have to be a frien of the clan? Or does this relate to the Fleming familyname?

Perhaps this tartan is more common than the 2531

[Mike_Oettle]

In answer to the questions about the links between the Flemish tartan and Murray of Atholl, here is a quote from Wikipedia (yes, the dreaded Wiki!) on the subject. It appears to be fairly accurate:

The Murrays (Moireach in Scottish Gaelic) are descended from the Flemish nobleman Freskin de Moravia (also progenitor of Clan Sutherland and possibly Clan Douglas). Flemish and Norman lords crossed the North Sea and established themselves in the Scottish realm at the invitation of the Kings of Scots from the early 12th century. Freskin and his son were granted extensive lands in Moray and intermarried with the old line of Celtic Mormaers from Moray. They took the name ‘de Moravia’, i.e. ‘of Moray’ in Latin. The descendants of Freskin’s grandson William de Moravia became Lords of Bothwell. The name became more generally written simply as ‘Moray’ or variants, deriving from the great province of Moray, once a local kingdom, by the end of the 13th century. From him descend the principal houses of Murray: Tullibardine, Atholl, Abercairney and Polmaise. The name Murray is believed to derive from Pictish *Moritreb, meaning ‘seaward settlement’, referring to the ancient province, the Mormaerdom of Moray. Much larger than the present county of Moray, it ran along the coast of the Moray Firth, north of the Grampians. MacMurray, Moray, Murry, Morrow, and Morogh are all variants of the family name.

There are several other Scottish families with connections to Flanders, including the Bowes-Lyons from whom the Queen is descended (the blue lion rampant of Lyon is taken directly from the arms of the graven van Leuven – in English, the counts of Louvain), and quite likely even King William the Lion, the first Scottish sovereign known to have borne the lion in his coat of arms.
He added a tressure flory-counterflory to distinguish his arms from those of his cousin, the Earl of Fife. Both the tressure [now known generally as a royal tressure and an integral part of many Scottish personal and corporate arms] and the lion were to be found in the arms of Flemings as borne for centuries before the so-called Norman Conquest of England in 1066.
Regards,
Mike

[docBol]

In answer to the questions about the links between the Flemish tartan and Murray of Atholl, here is a quote from Wikipedia (yes, the dreaded Wiki!) on the subject. It appears to be fairly accurate:

The Murrays (Moireach in Scottish Gaelic) are descended from the Flemish nobleman Freskin de Moravia (also progenitor of Clan Sutherland and possibly Clan Douglas). Flemish and Norman lords crossed the North Sea and established themselves in the Scottish realm at the invitation of the Kings of Scots from the early 12th century. Freskin and his son were granted extensive lands in Moray and intermarried with the old line of Celtic Mormaers from Moray. They took the name ‘de Moravia’, i.e. ‘of Moray’ in Latin. The descendants of Freskin’s grandson William de Moravia became Lords of Bothwell. The name became more generally written simply as ‘Moray’ or variants, deriving from the great province of Moray, once a local kingdom, by the end of the 13th century. From him descend the principal houses of Murray: Tullibardine, Atholl, Abercairney and Polmaise. The name Murray is believed to derive from Pictish *Moritreb, meaning ‘seaward settlement’, referring to the ancient province, the Mormaerdom of Moray. Much larger than the present county of Moray, it ran along the coast of the Moray Firth, north of the Grampians. MacMurray, Moray, Murry, Morrow, and Morogh are all variants of the family name.


Mike

thanks,

I got a similar reply from Murray.

For those still interested in the Fleming/Frisken/Flanders Tartan, I contacted the house of Edgar. The referred me to the house of Tartan as they created the tartan for them. Of course I sent them a mail as well to inquire if they still have the fabric or are plannign to make products form this tartan. I'll keep you guys updated

[docBol]

Just an update,

I've got an reply from "house of tartan". They got the Flanders 2531 tartan in stock and would be happy to make me a kilt, including flashes and a hanger, for 333£

Slightly above my budget of 100€ I thought of spending on a first kilt, but less than the cost if I would have to get the fabric made to order.

I think I'm going to sleep on it

[Mike_Oettle]

It seems, docBol, that your budget is tight, like mine.
My first kilt cost me about R1 200 (€119), my second R2 000 (€198), while my next one (the eight-yard “tank” for which my wife has given me the green light) will set me back R4 100 (€405) – a big hole in my pocket.
Perhaps you should aim for a four-yarder this time round, and save up for a “tank” for next time.
What tartans do you think you might go for (aside from Black Watch)?
Regards,
Mike

[docBol]

I'm thinking of buying a budgetkilt from buyakilt, one of the sponsors of this forum.

freedom, ramsay blue and heritage of scotland look nice

[docBol]

So I ended up with a Ramsay Blue. In retrospect I might have gone for a size smaller. It now doesn't sag if I adjust the belts all the way to the minimal setting.

And I've tested it for the first time in public: Participated in the "4daagse va

[docBol]

So I ended up with a Ramsay Blue. In retrospect I might have gone with a size smaller. I need to adjust the straps allt the way to the smallest size to wear it.

And I've tested it in public for the first time. Today I participated for a dat in the "4daagse van de Ijzer": an "open" military excersize in which you can choose as a civilian to march allong for up to 4 days, distances of 8, 16, 24 and 32 km allong the WW1 front. Did 1 day 24 myself.

It was a suprising experience. The kilt is both warm and at the same time very airy. And much heavier than I expected. Not to many people seemd to take notice of it. Only one person Asked me why I choose Ramsay Blue. It turned out it was the tartan used in his piping band. And the typical questions: How does it feel (see above) and "where are the bagpipes (doedelzak in Flemisch)?" (under the kilt where they belong)

Only negative point were the lack of pockets and the insecure feeling sitting down.