Call me frugal, call me cheep

[matt.mackinnon]

My comments were made not about buying a quality made item. I have no problem with that. I am not looking for cheep, but value for the money that is spent.

Years ago I thought it too expensive to have my living room floor refinished. I did it myself. The overall cost was less but It sure kicked the hell out of me. I wouldn't do that work for any hourly wage. It's tough and grueling. I discovered that the skilled folks really do deserve what they charge.

Ken, I know what you mean by gruelling work. I installed rustic walnut flooring in my stitting room and office this year. 350sq.feet of it. It took me 3 weeks from start to finish. I probably saved around $4000 doing the work myself. After it was done, I did get some help from a flooring installer for applying the monocoat finish to the floor. The installer was very impressed at the work that I had done and made a point of saying that this floor looks better than most installs that even he does. I took the time to match grains of wood from one section to another. Strategically placed all the character burly and knotty bits to give the most impact for the room. Hand coped around the wooden central heating ducts. Yes, it took me 2 times the man hours that a pro would have taken, but ended up with a better finished product. But this was a project that I knew I could do.

But that is completely irrelevant to my complaint. A $700 hand made kilt has a whole lot of work and pride that has gone into it. It's expensive yes, but I see value in the product given compared to the price. A flat piece of leather with no decorations and a machine sew around the outside is not worth 1/4 of the value of a hand made kilt. A strip of leather with 3 rivets that could be made in less than 3 minutes hardly seems worth 1/10 of the value to a hand made kilt. But that is the price that you pay. Maybe the kilt should be worth far more than you are currently paying to make it proportional in value compared to the rest of your items in your kit, because face it, why would your buy a sporran, kilt belt, sgian dubh or hose unless you had that kilt to ware them with.

Matt.

[david30101]

I dont worry about sporrans.. All my kilts have pockets.. I dont need one beating me to death every time I walk..

[David Thorpe]

Learn to do it yourself, Matt. Leather work is not rocket surgery. It takes some time and effort, and there is a learning curve, but it is far from impossible to do beautiful work with some practice and a few simple hand tools.
I bought an Ebay Cheapo for the nice cantle and rebuilt it into a fine dress sporran with black bear hide I had on hand and horsehair I bought (for tassels). I also have done two hunting sporrans (so far) by downloading a picture of one of those $300 masterpieces, blowing it up to full size and tracing onto some good leather.
All of these mean more to me than if I had spent the big bucks on buying them ready-made.
The curse of the DIYer is not being willing to pay someone else to do what you can do yourself.

[OC Richard]

Being cheep if for the birds.

(sorry! I had to do it...)

[madmacs]

What's the price of a pair of shoes again? $40 for cheap imported glued ones, or $300 for a pair of domestic stitched ones?

[Canuck]

I guess I could defend myself for charging high prices for my leather goods. Some have already outlined the costs.
One thing is I don’t have a pile of hides stashed in a closet somewhere that I can instantly get to, to make projects. I have to find a good supplier, get the range of quality of leathers that are available and choose the best. That takes time. Now once I have chosen the type of hide and I want to reorder it, it still takes time to place the order, cost of shipping, check the order when it arrives and store the leather properly. I have learned my lesson when buying hides, I want to make sure that the leather I buy, the same quality and type of hide will be available for some time to come. Tandy leather is known for selling ends of lines. All great for doing one offs but not so if you want to do production work. ( I don’t buy my leather from them so not an issue for me)
I have to make a pattern, and yes once the pattern is done it’s a simple matter of tracing, but to be efficient I may look into getting a die or number of dies to stamp out the components to do that. I prefer to go to the die maker and discuss the patterns and make sure he will make them to my specs. (That usually takes a day out of my production) I will make a prototype. Look at the postings from the DYI’s .Notice how many attempts they make to get to the version they really like.
What kind of market do I have? Let’s face it, We’re not talking stoves or cars or dress shirts. There is a limited market for sporrans. To be cost effective I have to produce a fair number to amortize the cost of the R&D, and equipment . I get a break on hardware when I order more than 50, 100, 1000 pieces. If I can also have a complimentary product that I can make something with the waste, I get a further saving which I can then pass on.
Sundry items like quality thread, glue, special needles. I need to buy this in volume in order to be cost effective.
That $100 sporran or $175 sporran may cost $50 to make but that would be the wholesale price. You would like to distribute your product to as many vendors as possible, the retailer has to make money as well.
I would like to point out, that whenever this topic comes up, NO ONE accounts for the time it took to go to the supplier of choice to get the raw materials to make said project. The time you spent driving to said venue or the time spent online finding the raw material and ordering it, or the transportation or shipping. A special tool might be mentioned as a capital cost. Rarely have I read about the time it took to make the pattern…it never seems to be factored into the equation. WHY IS THAT? It appears to be glossed over as not being a part of the process or cost. Nor does one even think that time is money. “It only took me an hour to make this” So what do you make an hour at your real job? I ask you to factor that in when you make a project for yourself. Just as an exercise factor in what you make an hour, be it minimum wage or your salary divided by a standard 40 hour week and apply that to the overall cost of the DYI project so we have a real world comparison. It’s a very simple request.

[Deirachel]

The part that Canuck left out, also, is the simple knowledge and skill needed. It's the old joke about the plumber who just tapped a pipe and the drain worked. The charge isn't only for the labor of the hammer strike; it's also to pay for knowing where and how to hit the pipe.

For a quality product, often requires a deceptively high level of skill, usually more so for the visually simplest styles.

[opositive]

as ac clark noted: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

from the standpoint of someone with the leather working skill of a retarded lemur, my most recent purchase was made with magic:



i spent more $ than i wanted but knew from being here that i now have in my hands a relative bargain. with patience and knowledge, you can possess something magical. if you have skill, you can make your own magic. being a neanderthal, i have been working on my patience and knowledge. fire pretty--so pretty...ugh ugh

[edit--i forgot to mention that i found this for about 60% less than the original cost on ebay. it takes a lot of looking to get past the dreck]

[Downunder Kilt]

I guess I could defend myself for charging high prices for my leather goods. Some have already outlined the costs.
One thing is I don’t have a pile of hides stashed in a closet somewhere that I can instantly get to, to make projects. I have to find a good supplier, get the range of quality of leathers that are available and choose the best. That takes time. Now once I have chosen the type of hide and I want to reorder it, it still takes time to place the order, cost of shipping, check the order when it arrives and store the leather properly. I have learned my lesson when buying hides, I want to make sure that the leather I buy, the same quality and type of hide will be available for some time to come. Tandy leather is known for selling ends of lines. All great for doing one offs but not so if you want to do production work. ( I don’t buy my leather from them so not an issue for me)
I have to make a pattern, and yes once the pattern is done it’s a simple matter of tracing, but to be efficient I may look into getting a die or number of dies to stamp out the components to do that. I prefer to go to the die maker and discuss the patterns and make sure he will make them to my specs. (That usually takes a day out of my production) I will make a prototype. Look at the postings from the DYI’s .Notice how many attempts they make to get to the version they really like.
What kind of market do I have? Let’s face it, We’re not talking stoves or cars or dress shirts. There is a limited market for sporrans. To be cost effective I have to produce a fair number to amortize the cost of the R&D, and equipment . I get a break on hardware when I order more than 50, 100, 1000 pieces. If I can also have a complimentary product that I can make something with the waste, I get a further saving which I can then pass on.
Sundry items like quality thread, glue, special needles. I need to buy this in volume in order to be cost effective.
That $100 sporran or $175 sporran may cost $50 to make but that would be the wholesale price. You would like to distribute your product to as many vendors as possible, the retailer has to make money as well.
I would like to point out, that whenever this topic comes up, NO ONE accounts for the time it took to go to the supplier of choice to get the raw materials to make said project. The time you spent driving to said venue or the time spent online finding the raw material and ordering it, or the transportation or shipping. A special tool might be mentioned as a capital cost. Rarely have I read about the time it took to make the pattern…it never seems to be factored into the equation. WHY IS THAT? It appears to be glossed over as not being a part of the process or cost. Nor does one even think that time is money. “It only took me an hour to make this” So what do you make an hour at your real job? I ask you to factor that in when you make a project for yourself. Just as an exercise factor in what you make an hour, be it minimum wage or your salary divided by a standard 40 hour week and apply that to the overall cost of the DYI project so we have a real world comparison. It’s a very simple request.

You are so right Canuck

[Geoff Withnell]

There are many "off-line" expenses faced by any small business that many don't think about. Do you think the owner might want to take some vacation occasionally? That means increasing the price so that during the 50 weeks a year when he is working, he makes enough to take that vacation - there's no HR department providing benefits. Worker's comp, health insurance, liability insurance, maybe put a little aside for retirement? It's all got to be in the price.