Origins of Fringe / No fringe

[figheadair]

[QUOTE=Domehead;1133960][QUOTE=figheadair;1133950]Not at all. I can't think of a case where a fashion detail arose because of public demand. The public choose from what is available and in this case it would have been because a particular maker added a fringe, the idea was copied and some people, not me, liked it.

Thanks for your input, indeed everyone's input. Considering the above, is it possible to discern which direction options may have traveled?
Meaning...

M.A.C. Newsome spoke of "self-fringed" aprons arising from simple sheared aprons leaving the tailor's table. It is reasonable that becomes an option for the public to select. What of a husband who demands his wife afix buttons for braces, or belt loops for stout gut, etc. Is this scenario likely? If so, is it possible to determine that these features became options for selection, originating from the highland homestead?

I think you're reading too much into this. The Gordon (which I've seen) and the Forbes (don't know that one) appear to be the exceptions amongst the early surviving kilts. To that number I would add the two MacDougall kilts at Dunollie which are c1805-10 and 1815-18 respectively, unshaped and finished with a turned edge (Matt - I suggest avoiding the term 'hem' as that may be confused with the bottom of a piece of cloth i.e. the selvedge).

Given that kilts developed from joined plaids and all the surviving examples of this have turned ends and that I can't think of a fringe shown in an early portrait that depicts the kilt (as opposed to the plaid) then I think it safe to assume that the turned end was the original practice and that the self fringe was probably a personal preference or perhaps a particular maker's method, and that the modern type of fringing dates to c1900 give or take 20 years, possibly slightly later.

[piperdbh]

One reason for not fringing a shaped apron is that fringing it wouldn't work. The edges of the front apron are diagonal, not straight vertical (or "plumb") and pulling out threads to "self-fringe" the apron just wouldn't work. The older examples of unshaped aprons being fringed might just be a function of time a and wear. They might have originally been hemmed (or "turned", as Peter says) but over time the stitching came undone and vertical threads pulled out of the weave.

[The Wizard of BC]

I think we are forgetting something here. It seems that when this sort of discussion happens we often seem to want to treat the kilt as a single, static, garment.

If we are talking only about tailored kilts, we still talking about a garment that has been around a couple hundred years. There have been tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people who have made kilts.

Most cities have someone who can make kilts. For the local Pipe band or for the local dancers.

There is no one, correct, or even accepted way to make a kilt. Each kilt maker has their own way of stitching, shaping, re-enforcing etc.

There have been a lot of very smart, very talented people making kilts. About every way imaginable has been tried at one time or another. This is why we can point to so many different types of pleats. Why we have different ways to align and sew the pleats.

Each person or company who is offering kilts to the public would want to find something special or different from the other guy down the street.

There are many kilts made by people who are great with a needle and thread but no formal kiltmaking training. They are not bound by a "right" way or "proper" way to make a kilt. They are free to experiment and try new and different things.

Not all Highland Regimental kilts are the same. Regiments can choose how their kilt are made, pleated and what features are included or omitted.

Technology is also a factor. The rapier loom is just one technological advancement that has had an impact on the kilt.

I don't know of anyone who can give a definitive answer to the OP's question. For each example someone else can find something different.



So the answer to the question "when was a fringe first put on the outer apron edge of a kilt?" is much like, and has the same answer as, "when was the kilt invented?"
The answer is of course, tongue firmly planted in cheek, is "On Tuesday"

What we need to remember is that this is a piece of clothing. A fashion garment. Fashion is fickle and always changing.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Right, Steve. And I would be wary of talking about a particular feature "becoming an option for the public to select." We have to remember that the way people acquired their kilts (and indeed all clothing) two hundred years ago was a far cry from how people order their kilts today. If we order our kilt online, there may be a handy-dandy drop down menu that asks us whether or not we want the apron fringed, or whether we want two or three leather straps, or if we want belt loops or not, that sort of thing. All the available options for construction are laid out for us.

Even if we go into a Highland dress shop in person we are likely not speaking with the actual kilt maker. Most shops simply sell kilts made by one of the larger firms in Scotland. And the "options" on the kilt are spelled out to those retail stores, so that the staff can offer them to their clients.

In the past, people would have simply gone into the local tailors and asked for a kilt. If there was anything special they wanted, such as buttons for braces, or a silk ribbon tie, they'd mention it to the tailor and he'd accommodate as best he could. But I doubt there was a posted list of available options.

Or, someone in the man's household would make his kilt, and the same thing would apply. If he wanted something special like a fringe on the apron, he'd mention it. Or the person making the kilt would just do it the way he or she was used to doing it.

One thing I can tell you from looking at many early kilts is that there did not seem to be a "standard" way of doing anything. Variety was the norm.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I think Steve made the most astute comment when he pointed out that the kilts for enlisted ranks are plain, while those of officers are fringed. In all probability the fringing on civilian kilts (post c.1900) is the result of kilt makers increasingly standardizing on "the officer's pattern" kilt for all their customers. When you think about this, it makes sense. Both serving and former officers would expect their kilts to have fringe, and probably would send them back if they didn't. Those unfamiliar with military kilts would, with the passage of time, just assume that all kilts are fringed (if they even noticed).

[The Wizard of BC]

There are still kilt makers in this world that make one type or style of kilt. No options are offered or available. "You want a kilt? This is what you get."

There are also makers who ask their customers about every available option. Pleated to Sett or Stripe? Knife pleats, box pleats, military box pleats? I'm here to make your kilt the way you want it.

And there are makers who will always add to or modify a kilt to make it more desirable, or expensive, or exclusive.

I'm of the opinion that fringe is one of the latter. Fringed aprons are "special", more exclusive. They take more time, more material, more skill or patience. It is the idea that "Real" kilts have fringe or double fringe or triple fringe.

I'm pretty sure that some kilt maker fairly soon will develop something totally new, totally different and within a short time, we here, will be asking if that too is required.

[seanachie]

There are still kilt makers in this world that make one type or style of kilt. No options are offered or available. "You want a kilt? This is what you get."

There are also makers who ask their customers about every available option. Pleated to Sett or Stripe? Knife pleats, box pleats, military box pleats? I'm here to make your kilt the way you want it.

And there are makers who will always add to or modify a kilt to make it more desirable, or expensive, or exclusive.

I'm of the opinion that fringe is one of the latter. Fringed aprons are "special", more exclusive. They take more time, more material, more skill or patience. It is the idea that "Real" kilts have fringe or double fringe or triple fringe.

I'm pretty sure that some kilt maker fairly soon will develop something totally new, totally different and within a short time, we here, will be asking if that too is required.

Interesting Steve that you mentioned more skill. I have seem fringe on kilts that looked as if it was done by a skilled craftsman and others that looked less professionally done. I am interested in your comment on patience....from a kiltmaker's perspective how does that factor in?

[The Wizard of BC]

This is personal opinion of course, but I think it is the quality of patience that allows a person to become skilled in anything.

Not only does a skilled craftsman need patience to learn the craft in the first place, but it is patience that allows them to retain those skills.

Each time a craftsman makes something, they make it the best they possibly can. Once you start taking short cuts and skimping on details the level of skill begins to deteriorate.

Take putting a fringe on an apron. There are many ways to do it. One way Matt describes, as seeing on an old kilt, is to simply pull a fringe from the straight edge of an apron.
Another is to fold the apron edge just as you would a hem, and then add a piece of fabric which becomes the fringe.
Another is to fold the apron edge like the letter "Z". The lower leg of the fold becomes the fringe.
You can also fold like a "Z", add an extra piece of fabric for the fringe, or use the extra piece plus the lower leg, and create a double fringe.

But whenever you fold any flat surface on an angle, what in the fabric world is called 'the bias', you create a problem. The fabric does not line up any more.

With Wool Tartan we can steam and shape the wool. With patience and skill the kilt maker can distort the fabric till the Tartan lines will again line up perfectly.
This molding of the fabric takes time. It also takes a bit of skill and a lot of patience. You can't force the fabric to take a new shape. You must gently heat it until it is pliable and gently 'convince' it to take a new shape.

I find that whispering to the wool as I caress it works.....Oh, wait, that's my wife that that works on......

Which ever method to create the fringe you use, you must then sew the edge. This also takes some skill and patience. If you are hand stitching you do not let the stitches show from the outside. You must also make it strong because the edge of the outer apron is subjected to quite a bit of abuse in wearing. It flaps about.

It does not matter if I am making a kilt with no fringe, single, double or even triple fringe, I use the same criteria for aligning the Tartan pattern of the fringe as I do sewing the Pleats of the Fell. There should be no mis-alignment visible. My shop standard is one yarn. If my Tartan pattern is one yarn mis-aligned I rip it out and re-stitch.

And there we are right back to the patience thing again. If you rip out a stitch line three times in a row, and don't have lots of patience, you will never become hansom like me.

It is easy to make a kilt to the lowest common denominator. A raw apron edge or a single folded over hem is easier and faster than putting a fringe on. Just the pulling out of the yarns to create the fringe takes a while.

This is why I believe that the fringe came about as one of those 'extra' or 'exclusive' things found on higher end custom made kilts. The kilt maker is trying to give their customer something that they won't find on a competitor's kilt.

They say that in Real Estate, location is everything. In the fashion world it is "exclusivity".

[mookien]

This thread is growing so content rich that it might make a good candidate for a "sticky". I'm not at all familiar with how those decisions are made, but I would hate for this thread to permanently drop out of sight. I can see some of us "on the fringe", so to speak, referring back to it from time to time.

[Domehead]

This thread is growing so content rich that it might make a good candidate for a "sticky". I'm not at all familiar with how those decisions are made, but I would hate for this thread to permanently drop out of sight. I can see some of us "on the fringe", so to speak, referring back to it from time to time.

***
Infact, I've been purposely silent re: this conversation thanks to the heavy weights whom have carried the day. These are the discussions which first drew me to X-Marks.
"Write on you Princes of Tartan, You Kings of the Kilt..."