Maxwell Crest Ring

[jmaxwell522]

Hey all,
Well I abandoned the easy formatting ring, it just never proved to come through with good detailing. Instead I contracted a 3D modeler to help me with working the models I had. The result is great it came out a bit small (Size 8-8.5 US) when completed I'm working on the model to increase the size and have a few sizes available for my dad and brother, if enough interest is noted I'd make it available for purchase. This particular piece was made in stainless steel.

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[davidlpope]

By leaving out the strap and buckle element, though, haven't you appropriated the crest of the Chief of the Maxwells for your personal use?

[jmaxwell522]

My understanding was the crest of the Chief included three feathers, the three 'stars' at the bottom more or less represent the holes in the buckle, also I've been informed that the buckle image is under some protection of artwork. The image I used was aside from the stag/bush image a complete rework to include all elements of the crest while being able to be made with detail showing nicely. If any other detail was included it would not look nice, there were several iterations and several of them did not look suitable for wear.
If someone with knowledge of this can help out it would be appreciated. I'm at a loss on if this is wrong or not.

[jmaxwell522]

Scotweb sells a crest seal ring without the buckle components as well

http://www.scotweb.co.uk/products/small-clan-crest-reverse-seal-ring/

[M. A. C. Newsome]

David is correct. It is the strap and buckle that designates one is not displaying a personal crest, but showing another's crest as a badge of allegiance.

From the Lord Lyon's web site:
"It is correct for these people [clansmen] to wear their Chiefs Crest encircled with a strap and buckle bearing their Chief’s Motto or Slogan. The strap and buckle is the sign of the clansman, and he demonstrates his membership of his Chiefs Clan by wearing his Chief’s Crest within it."

Feathers do signify an armiger or a chief, but it is not the feathers which make the crest particularly the chief's; rather it is the strap and buckle which make the crest particularly the clansman's. Many armigers wear their personal crests either in a simple circlet or alone, with no feathers.

[jmaxwell522]

Ok, well if one is in the US where there is no heraldry regulation, this would not be an issue. Also how does one go from clansman to armiger? I'm not sure what the difference between the two would be. (I'm looking it up as we speak but not finding more than armiger is one who can bear the arms)
So I'd like people to weigh in on this issue as it pertains to the ring I've made, being worn in the US, as well as the one sold on scotweb being a legitimate arms ring as well. I would think being Scotland based they would adhere to any heraldry regulations set forth.
Thanks for your help, I may rework the ring to include a buckle of sorts if consensus is to do so

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Well you certainly would not be breaking any laws wearing this ring in the US, though if you were to wear it in Scotland you would be -- and people are still prosecuted for heraldic matters in Scotland today, Lord Lyon having legal authority in the matter. Someone would, of course, have to notice it and raise an issue about it. I imagine if one were to run into the Maxwell clan chief he would first politely ask you to stop displaying his personal crest as if it were yours, and only if you persistently refused would he bother to press charges. However, since there currently is no living Maxwell chief, I'd be surprised if anyone raised an issue about it.

Nevertheless, if you desire to follow heraldic protocol you would display the crest of your chief encircled in the belt and buckle. The crest is an heraldic item which signifies a particular individual -- not a family. The belt and buckle signify that this is not your personal crest, but you are displaying it as a sign of allegiance to the person represented by the crest.

An armiger is someone who has his own personal heraldic arms (and perhaps a crest, as well, though not necessarily). If you had your own personal arms, then of course you would be free to display them however you choose.

The Lord Lyon's web site I linked to previously is a good source of information. Another is the web site of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs.
http://www.clanchiefs.org/category/heraldry/

[jmaxwell522]

Well I contacted the best source for this topic the Court of Lord Lyon, and the Secretary to Lyon Office replied with some wonderful information. I'm still deciding where to take the information, being that we are in the US, and there are no legal ramifications and adjusting the 3D model will take significant amount of time and effort, and possibly more skill than I have. I may stand as it is and if I travel to the land of Scots I will leave the ring aside. Below is the response from Court of Lord Lyon:

Dear Mr. Maxwell,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the ring you have designed for your father. So far as this design is concerned, I should say that if it is to be produced, but see my comments below, it should show the buckle rather than the plain circlet as a plain circlet is only appropriate for an armiger, that is someone who has recorded Arms in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland in their own name. I do not think the dots could be considered sufficient to indicate the strap and buckle.

The design you have chosen shows the crest and motto borne in the past by the Lords Nithsdale. As you may be aware, Arms in Scotland are personal property and belong to the grantee and his or her heir in each generation and cannot be borne by anyone else. Clan crest badges show the chief's personal motto within a strap and buckle bearing his personal motto and these may be worn by members of a clan to show their allegiance to their chief. Historically these badges were worn by clansmen to show that they acted on the authority of their chief and it is not correct for them to be used on stationery or other personal property as this might suggest that the property belonged to the chief.

I do hope this is of help to you.

So again being this ring will probably be worn by my father, brother and myself, and in the future my son; I may leave it as it stands. Feel free to weigh in on this, and if a buckled version ever comes about I would make it available to anyone who wishes one.
If you have an interest in the version as it stands feel free to PM me and we can discuss the design.

[davidlpope]

Well I contacted the best source for this topic the Court of Lord Lyon, and the Secretary to Lyon Office replied with some wonderful information. I'm still deciding where to take the information, being that we are in the US, and there are no legal ramifications and adjusting the 3D model will take significant amount of time and effort, and possibly more skill than I have. I may stand as it is and if I travel to the land of Scots I will leave the ring aside. Below is the response from Court of Lord Lyon:


So again being this ring will probably be worn by my father, brother and myself, and in the future my son; I may leave it as it stands. Feel free to weigh in on this, and if a buckled version ever comes about I would make it available to anyone who wishes one.
If you have an interest in the version as it stands feel free to PM me and we can discuss the design.

Here's an idea that I really commend to you: press the pause button on this project and consider assuming/recording/matriculating arms for you/your father. As an American, you have many different options to pursue arms of your very own. If you so choose, your father and his descendants could have signet rings showing their own crest, rather than those of another individual. This should be more meaningful for your family and would remove the concerns about stealing another's arms. Even though Lyon has no jurisdiction in the United States, it's bad form to appropriate another's arms.

Several members of XMarks have been through this design process and are great sources of information. I'm convinced that you will end up with a much better resolution than if you simply ignore the advice of Lyon Clerk.

David

[creagdhubh]

Well you certainly would not be breaking any laws wearing this ring in the US, though if you were to wear it in Scotland you would be -- and people are still prosecuted for heraldic matters in Scotland today, Lord Lyon having legal authority in the matter. Someone would, of course, have to notice it and raise an issue about it. I imagine if one were to run into the Maxwell clan chief he would first politely ask you to stop displaying his personal crest as if it were yours, and only if you persistently refused would he bother to press charges. However, since there currently is no living Maxwell chief, I'd be surprised if anyone raised an issue about it.

Nevertheless, if you desire to follow heraldic protocol you would display the crest of your chief encircled in the belt and buckle. The crest is an heraldic item which signifies a particular individual -- not a family. The belt and buckle signify that this is not your personal crest, but you are displaying it as a sign of allegiance to the person represented by the crest.

An armiger is someone who has his own personal heraldic arms (and perhaps a crest, as well, though not necessarily). If you had your own personal arms, then of course you would be free to display them however you choose.

The Lord Lyon's web site I linked to previously is a good source of information. Another is the web site of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs.
http://www.clanchiefs.org/category/heraldry/

Well said, Matt. Clear, concise and correctly explained. It doesn't get any more straightforward than this.