Kilt belt loops?

[DyerStraits]

I agree that on a properly fitting feilidh-beag (i.e. firmly but comfortably snug at the waist), using the loops for either a belt or a sporran is optional and I personally have recently taken to not using the loops depending on how I'm kilting up at the time, and sometimes not even wearing a belt. Of course both the original feilidh-beag and feileadh Mhor had no loops, so there you have it. To each his own.

[Nathan]

Interestingly, I put my vintage military box pleat kilt into a kiltmaker for some alterations and it came back with belt loops even though it didn't have them when it went in and I didn't ask for them.

I don't use them for my belt because I was taught that was a tell tale sign of someone who didn't know what they were doing. I found that view odd, but still didn't want to look like I didn't know what I was doing so have never used them...

[MacMillans son]

Now that is an interesting perspective Nathan, I would think that wearing a belt on the outside of the belt loops would be more indicative of someone who didn't know what they were doing. We wouldn't do that with a pair of trousers would we? If I were to see someone wearing their belt on top of their belt loops I would assume 1. They were drunk when they got dressed or 2. Were from a culture not familiar with belt loops and their intended use Funny thing perspective.

[Nathan]

Now that is an interesting perspective Nathan, I would think that wearing a belt on the outside of the belt loops would be more indicative of someone who didn't know what they were doing. We wouldn't do that with a pair of trousers would we? If I were to see someone wearing their belt on top of their belt loops I would assume 1. They were drunk when they got dressed or 2. Were from a culture not familiar with belt loops and their intended use Funny thing perspective.

Perspective is indeed a funny thing and your deductions make sense. You just can't deduce tradition, you either know it or you don't. So your statement about how "we wouldn't do that with a pair of trousers" kind of illustrates the point. You're looking at a kilt like a pair of trousers which it isn't. I do put my sporran strap or chain through those loops as I was taught that's what they were designed for and not my belt. If one didn't want to look like someone from a culture that wasn't familiar with sporran strap loops and confused them with the falsely analogous belt loops they were used to on trousers... well, you get the idea.

[MacMillans son]

OOOOO nicely played Nathan !

It has been my understanding that sporran loops were/are smaller loops (more in scale to a sporran strap) and that the larger loops that we see on most kilts are that size in order to allow for a kilt belt. However, as hard as it may be to believe, I have been wrong before.

Just to be clear, my point about seeing people wearing belts on top of loops was in reference to trousers, not kilts, but your counter point was still well taken.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

None of my kilts have belt loops. So that's how I solve that problem. :-)

Traditionally, kilts did not have them. Sometime in the early twentieth century (my estimation) some kilt makers started to offer small belt loops on their kilts which were meant for the sporran strap to go through. The point of this, I presume, was to help those men with hips smaller than their waists to keep their sporran strap from slipping (this could be a problem both for men with larger waists as well as men with smaller hips). I think this problem is not quite as wide spread as some make it out to be, so it would really only benefit a select few. Nevertheless, people began to get used to seeing the loops there, and somehow the assumption spread in that the wider kilt belt was supposed to go through them, so kilt makers began to make them larger to accommodate the larger belts.

So that's the history. A lot of traditional kilt makers, yours truly included, don't normally put belt loops on kilts unless specifically requested. However, I also don't see the point in what Scotty Thompson suggests, which is using this tradition as a reason for wearing your belt outside the loops. To me that just looks silly. If your kilt was made with belt loops, then use them. If you don't want to use them, then remove them. But to have them and then wear your belt outside of them just looks like you made a mistake getting dressed, like wearing one navy and one black sock, or missing a button on your shirt. I don't see the point in it.

[revbook]

Perspective is indeed a funny thing and your deductions make sense. You just can't deduce tradition, you either know it or you don't. So your statement about how "we wouldn't do that with a pair of trousers" kind of illustrates the point. You're looking at a kilt like a pair of trousers which it isn't. I do put my sporran strap or chain through those loops as I was taught that's what they were designed for and not my belt. If one didn't want to look like someone from a culture that wasn't familiar with sporran strap loops and confused them with the falsely analogous belt loops they were used to on trousers... well, you get the idea.

Nathan...Great reply, I couldn't have said it better myself!

[creagdhubh]

None of my kilts have belt loops. So that's how I solve that problem. :-)

Traditionally, kilts did not have them. Sometime in the early twentieth century (my estimation) some kilt makers started to offer small belt loops on their kilts which were meant for the sporran strap to go through. The point of this, I presume, was to help those men with hips smaller than their waists to keep their sporran strap from slipping (this could be a problem both for men with larger waists as well as men with smaller hips). I think this problem is not quite as wide spread as some make it out to be, so it would really only benefit a select few. Nevertheless, people began to get used to seeing the loops there, and somehow the assumption spread in that the wider kilt belt was supposed to go through them, so kilt makers began to make them larger to accommodate the larger belts.

So that's the history. A lot of traditional kilt makers, yours truly included, don't normally put belt loops on kilts unless specifically requested. However, I also don't see the point in what Scotty Thompson suggests, which is using this tradition as a reason for wearing your belt outside the loops. To me that just looks silly. If your kilt was made with belt loops, then use them. If you don't want to use them, then remove them. But to have them and then wear your belt outside of them just looks like you made a mistake getting dressed, like wearing one navy and one black sock, or missing a button on your shirt. I don't see the point in it.

Well put, Matt!

[Nathan]

I find it interesting that Matt has a different perspective on this (and one that has been supported by Kyle, Jock, Domehead & Tobus).

This was really stressed to me by a number of people throught my kilt wearing life. The logic goes that the kilt belt is not there to hold up the kilt, it's there to give a neat and finished delineation between the top of the kilt and the shirt, serving a similar role to a cumberbund with a tuxedo. Putting the belt through the loops situates the belt below the top of the kilt, leaving the top exposed and the belt therefore fails to serve it's primary decorative purpose. On a military kilt, the top ribbon is bright green so this stands out a lot. At least on many contemporary civilian kilts, the top is finished in tartan.

I'm open to having my mind changed about this, but I can say that I've been told this many, many times, so if you choose to put your kilt belt through the loops there are many out there who will think you've made a sartorial error like buttoning the bottom button on your waistcoat etc...

[creagdhubh]

I find it interesting that Matt has a different perspective on this (and one that has been supported by Kyle, Jock, Domehead & Tobus).

This was really stressed to me by a number of people throught my kilt wearing life. The logic goes that the kilt belt is not there to hold up the kilt...

Precisely. If the kilt is well made to the wearer's exact measurments, there is simply no need for a belt unless the wearer wishes to wear one for purely decorative purposes, or if the wearer wishes to wear a dirk (thus requiring a dirk frog attached to the belt) with Highland evening attire.

Also, there has been much debate in the past on XMTS in regards to buttoning the last button on a waistcoat, more specifically a tweed waistcoat worn during the day. Some believe that the Highland tradition is to button all of the buttons to include the last button. I have seen this in a multitude of old photos of various Highland gentlemen, but I have also see it done the other way just as many times. Personally, I prefer to leave the last button on my tweed waistcoat(s) unbuttoned and I never button my jacket.