two magnificent Victorian doublets on Ebay

[Nathan]

As former military I have an issue with mixing military and civilian kit. This particular sporran is not just militaria, it has battle honours to which I'm not entitled or associated embossed upon it. That's what those place names are. I think its vulgar to assume honours to which one is not entitled and would never wear such an item. This notion was stressed to us during basic training and oft repeated thereafter.

[Tobus]

As former military I have an issue with mixing military and civilian kit. This particular sporran is not just militaria, it has battle honours to which I'm not entitled or associated embossed upon it. That's what those place names are. I think its vulgar to assume honours to which one is not entitled and would never wear such an item. This notion was stressed to us during basic training and oft repeated thereafter.

Certainly understandable. But what do you suggest be done with all the military items that have "battle honours" on them, once their original owners (or descendants) no longer want them? Should they be destroyed? They can't all go into museums, and it's a shame to think that they'd be stuffed away for eternity, never to be viewed or worn ever again.

[Jock Scot]

Never worn again would be my thoughts here. I know many may not understand, or agree, but I firmly believe those that were entitled to wear them as uniform, even if they may now have passed away, that they were entitled to do so, not us.

[Nathan]

Certainly understandable. But what do you suggest be done with all the military items that have "battle honours" on them, once their original owners (or descendants) no longer want them? Should they be destroyed? They can't all go into museums, and it's a shame to think that they'd be stuffed away for eternity, never to be viewed or worn ever again.

I certainly don't think they should be destroyed. Just like medals for valour, they should be saved and cherished by the person's descendants or collectors or museums etc... Perhaps the cantle could be replaced and the sporran could be worn as a civilian piece with the original cantle stored in case of resale to a collector who wants it mint. The sporran was designed to be worn by members of the Seaforth Highlanders Regiment and, judging by the look of it, by pretty high ranking members at that.

There are other such items that we wouldn't or shouldn't just wear with our street clothes.
It's like a Mayor's livery collar or the chief of police's uniform for a disbanded municipality or as I said before, the medals of honour of a deceased soldier. They should be admired, collected, preserved, but what should not happen is for poseurs to prance around in them as if they have some entitlement to the honour, sacrifice and service they represent.

Perhaps they should never be worn again. I don't think that's necessarily a shame. A collector can put it in a letterbox and hang it on his wall for all to enjoy without wrapping it around his waist.

Heck, I wouldn't even display bowling trophies I didn't win either, no matter what a good deal I got them for.

If you bought Mohammed Ali's Championship boxing belt, would you wear it? I wouldn't. I'm not nor have I ever been the World Champ. I might buy a World Series Championship ring from a hard up ball player and show it to my friends or sell at a profit later or pass down to my kids but I would never wear it. I simply haven't earned the right.

[thescot]

I have a different view from most about the whole militaria thing. The only thing I consider sacred (and I use the term loosely) is a rack of medals and personal recognitions. Wearing another man's medals or ribbons is truly akin to stealing.

However, I would point out that not everyone in that particular regiment was actually in the battles named. In fact, it's likely that the wearer of that sporran didn't fight there either. Is he stealing valor? I know--he at least was in the unit and prepared to go if called upon, but how many people alive to day were at Khartoum or the Crimea or other noted battles? Very few are still with us who survived Dunkirk, but all of these are notable campaigns often listed by various regiments and battle honors of the units involved.

I was in the 2nd Mar Div, but I wasn't at Guadalcanal. And yet, that's a big deal for the 2nd Mar Div.

And, in the US at least, people have long worn items of military clothing (sans buttons and insignia) without trying to convince anyone they were heroes, even if they really were heroes! Hats, caps, field jackets, even the occasional blouse might be seen here and there. I am not offended unless someone is posing or if they wear dress blues disrespectfully. Wearing an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor seems to honor the Corps, I my opinion.

Having said all that, I do not wear military sporrans or any such thing. I do have a few items of regimental issue--Black Watch tam with red hackle, tam with white hackle, a green and a khaki jackets, many cap badges, etc.--I don't wear them. At least nothing more than trying on to show others or look in the mirror!

If one were to wear a sporran from a unit long gone, I don't think anyone would think them trying to pass themselves off as a member of that unit or a battle-hardened vet. Just wearing a pretty sporran.

I know it's likely more frowned upon in the UK, so to each his own.

[Tobus]

Perhaps the cantle could be replaced and the sporran could be worn as a civilian piece with the original cantle stored in case of resale to a collector who wants it mint.

I agree. For some reason I thought you were referring to the hair portion of the sporran too, in your previous reply.

[Jock Scot]

I have a different view from most about the whole militaria thing. The only thing I consider sacred (and I use the term loosely) is a rack of medals and personal recognitions. Wearing another man's medals or ribbons is truly akin to stealing.

However, I would point out that not everyone in that particular regiment was actually in the battles named. In fact, it's likely that the wearer of that sporran didn't fight there either. Is he stealing valor? I know--he at least was in the unit and prepared to go if called upon, but how many people alive to day were at Khartoum or the Crimea or other noted battles? Very few are still with us who survived Dunkirk, but all of these are notable campaigns often listed by various regiments and battle honors of the units involved.

I was in the 2nd Mar Div, but I wasn't at Guadalcanal. And yet, that's a big deal for the 2nd Mar Div.

And, in the US at least, people have long worn items of military clothing (sans buttons and insignia) without trying to convince anyone they were heroes, even if they really were heroes! Hats, caps, field jackets, even the occasional blouse might be seen here and there. I am not offended unless someone is posing or if they wear dress blues disrespectfully. Wearing an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor seems to honor the Corps, I my opinion.

Having said all that, I do not wear military sporrans or any such thing. I do have a few items of regimental issue--Black Watch tam with red hackle, tam with white hackle, a green and a khaki jackets, many cap badges, etc.--I don't wear them. At least nothing more than trying on to show others or look in the mirror!

If one were to wear a sporran from a unit long gone, I don't think anyone would think them trying to pass themselves off as a member of that unit or a battle-hardened vet. Just wearing a pretty sporran.

I know it's likely more frowned upon in the UK, so to each his own.

I cannot speak for American military traditions, Jim, but these names of battles past are Battle Honours bestowed upon British Regiments that served in a particular battle with distinction, not just for being there. These Battle names are sewn into the Regimental Colours which traditionally were the rallying point for the Regiment. Therefore it is part and parcel of the vital and essential British Regimental traditions. The names on those Regimental Colours are not just a list of names written on a whim, they are hard earned, paid for in blood and tears and it matters not if the battle happened in 1692 or 2014 those Honours mean everything to the British soldier.

I quite accept that every country has its own traditions, but one thing for certain sure, is every serviceman and woman in the UK Armed Services will unite around their Regimental/unit Colours and those Battle Honours that their unit has earned over time. Whilst those names might mean little to the rest of the world, they mean one heck of a lot to us in the UK. So whether those names are on a flag, sporran, collar dogs, cap badge , drum, bugle, brooch they mean a heck of a lot to us.

[Nathan]

I cannot speak for American military traditions, Jim, but these names of battles past are Battle Honours bestowed upon British Regiments that served in a particular battle with distinction, not just for being there. These Battle names are sewn into the Regimental Colours which traditionally were the rallying point for the Regiment. Therefore it is part and parcel of the vital and essential British Regimental traditions. The names on those Regimental Colours are not just a list of names written on a whim, they are hard earned, paid for in blood and tears and it matters not if the battle happened in 1692 or 2014 those Honours mean everything to the British soldier.

I quite accept that every country has its own traditions, but one thing for certain sure, is every serviceman and woman in the UK Armed Services will unite around their Regimental Colours and those Battle Honours that their unit has earned over time. Whilst those names might mean little to the rest of the world, they mean one heck of a lot to us in the UK. So whether those names are on a flag, sporran, collar dogs, cap badge , drum, bugle, brooch they mean a heck of a lot to us.

Ditto for Canada. Our military traditions and regiments are modelled after the British system. Many of our regiments mirror ones with the same names in Britain and our trade cape badges are quite similar. A Canadian Artillery badge and a British Artillery badge are nearly if not completely identical.

We have an active Seaforth Highlanders Regiment in Canada (I think Steve is their official kilt maker) and often it's tough to tell whether an item of Highland militaria is British or Canadian as we also have Black Watch Canada etc...

We have our own local Highland Regiments like the Calgary Highlanders, the Cape Breton Highlanders and the Nova Scotia Highlanders, but many of them follow sporran traditions etc... of their British "sister" regiments. The Cape Breton Highlanders ' sister regiment is the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders for example.

The bottom line is that you have to earn your way into one of these regiments by graduating your basic training. Only then can you lay claim to the regimental colours, battle honours, uniform and accoutrements. Not even a soldier from another regiment is entitled to these things, much less a civilian or a foreign civilian.

These Regimental items are laden with symbolism. Take for example the crown that sits atop many Commonwealth regimental cap badges. If you and your country don't acknowledge the Monarch, why would you wear Her crown on your attire?

I'm sure it's nobody's intention to offend, so just know that wearing these items would certainly offend those to whom they are entitled and those who know better.

[Hopper250]

Nathan and Jock,

You've both mentioned something that the US does similar to your countries. Battle honors are taken in a form, but they are not the same as they are in Canada or the UK. My brother served for a while in the 128th Infantry of the Wisconsin National Guard, in WWI they were given the title Les Terribles and they are fiercely proud of that title. However they have not taken or been given any others even though they have participated in six conflicts.

The title is seen only on one thing the Distictive Unit Insignia, rather then standards or other equipment.

[Nathan]

Nathan and Jock,

You've both mentioned something that the US does similar to your countries. Battle honors are taken in a form, but they are not the same as they are in Canada or the UK. My brother served for a while in the 128th Infantry of the Wisconsin National Guard, in WWI they were given the title Les Terribles and they are fiercely proud of that title. However they have not taken or been given any others even though they have participated in six conflicts.

The title is seen only on one thing the Distictive Unit Insignia, rather then standards or other equipment.

Interesting. As a point of clarification though, as Jock mentioned, a regiment does not get a battle honour in this tradition just for having served in a particular theatre of war. They are granted to regiments who serve with distinction and who do something particularly noteworthy in battle. This is why they make soldiers so proud. We had the list of battle honours on the dias of our parade square. When we looked at it, we remembered their valour and remembered that we wore the same uniform, came from the same place, and were thus capable of finding the same courage and grit within ourselves if required. Not only were we capable, but we owed it to their legacy to do so.