Hose Height / How much knee?

[ASinclair]

I like my kilt to stop at the top of my knee. I'm a runner, so I have large calves. I pull my hose up to just under my knee cap. Here's a picture --

IMG_0269.jpg

[Aussie_Don]

I'm still sort-of new, but as far as hose length I'm more or
less forced by biology. I've got big calves -- as in 16" -- and
the only place that works for hose tops is just above the
bulge of the muscle. (And, FWIW, I'm about 6' and 15% body
fat -- so they aren't going to get smaller.)


This leaves the hose top only about 1 or 2 fingers below
my kneecap Any lower and they'd fall down. And my
sgian dubh would fall out.

-Don

[MacGumerait]

[QUOTE=Steve Ashton;1244802]I chose this photo to show hose height simply because I was up on a stage so you are not seeing the parallax effect in other photos.




Yes , I know what you mean . I can see that kilt hose height is the focal point of the pic .

[Calgacus]

I think it was me who prompted this question

Just as the others have said, I like bottom of my kilt at the top of the kneecap, and the top of my hose 2 or 3 fingers below the bottom of my kneecap. Conveniently, this places the garters just above the widest part of my calf.

2014-05-17 18.17.23 by Richard the Rogue, on Flickr

I also find most hose to be rather long, so what I do is put the hose on, put the garters on in the correct place, then fold the hose top all the way down. This covers the flashes entirely, plus a bit! I then fold the end of the hose top back up to create a three-layer area at the top of the hose. This creates the right size hose top, it gives my skinny legs a bit more bulk, and it exposes the patterned hose top correctly.

I find that my hiking socks are just the wrong length, and a bit too thick, for that technique. They were designed for wearing with breeches just below the knee, so they tend to end up a little high.

I think the style of wearing hose lower down than three fingers might come from the military.

[Jock Scot]

I think with modern hose, that seem to be a tad longer, Calqacus has it about right in his picture. Using his picture as an example, I suppose I have got used to that look, although with older shorter hose--- usually hand knitted by "granny" where yarn may not have been so plentiful---- I seem to recall that they were possibly two inches shorter----perhaps a tad less--- on the leg and with a shorter turndown, even for civilians.

[Calgacus]

I think with modern hose, that seem to be a tad longer, Calqacus has it about right in his picture. Using his picture as an example, I suppose I have got used to that look, although with older shorter hose--- usually hand knitted by "granny" where yarn may not have been so plentiful---- I seem to recall that they were possibly two inches shorter----perhaps a tad less--- on the leg and with a shorter turndown, even for civilians.

Yes Jock, two inches is a shade over half the height of my hose top in that photo. I would happily wear my hose maybe an inch lower, I think they are at more of a 'two finger' height there, but the length of them and the way they fold means that they tend to end up where they are in that photo.

There's probably a gap in the market for someone to produce kilt hose in a variety of lengths. The pair in that photo are UK size 5.5 - 7.5, and my feet are a size 7, so they are supposedly on the small side, yet are still rather long.

[Spartan Tartan]

I am in large agreement with what others have said here. I tend to go with 2-3 fingers below the knee. That said, there seems to be a natural place where my garters tie comfortably and tend to end up regardless if I attempt to locate them elsewhere. Most of my hose require me to have a double fold for the cuff (down and back up).

This is me out at a Highland Games in Rhode Island. The weather was a tad warm for a tweed jacket, but generally this would be how I wear my kilt anyway... and yes, I DO wear a flatcap with my kilt. Not to derail this thread--I do not normally with a jacket, but this is my favorite hat and I wear it nearly everyday kilt or otherwise.

RI Highland Festival 8JUNE2013.jpg

[OC Richard]

Taking the long view of things, this is something that's been fairly stable over the centuries until rather recently, when people (especially Americans, it seems to me) started to pull their socks up right to the kneecap.

Here you can see the 'classic' height, here in the late 18th century, in this original portrait done from life



Yes there's more knee showing, with the kilt at (or very slightly above) the top of the kneecap.

As in so many things the Army does things the old way. Here you can see plenty of knee (slightly exaggerated by the camera angle) with the kilts at the top of the kneecap and the hose at the lower, traditional height.

In the army, with diced hosetops worn with spats, the height is dictated by how many diamonds the particular battalion has showing, the edge of a diamond coming precisely to meet the spats (well, the Gordons Pipe Major has one hosetop a bit high, and the Black Watch Pipe Major, a very tall man, has both his a tad high).



So what about the civilian world? The 56 kilted men in The Highlanders Of Scotland are fairly consistent in their hose height; photographs from the same period show the same thing. (Calgacus, above, appears to wear his kilt and hose quite like this.)



Nowadays in Pipe Bands one often sees kilts worn absurdly low, often accompanied by the pulling of the socks very high. Note that the waistcoat isn't long enough to compensate for the kilt being worn a few inches lower than intended by the maker



Here you might notice that the pipers tend to have a bit of knee showing, some of the drummers none at all



And since people are posting some selfies, Yours Truly piping at Fort MacArthur last weekend, in Great War period Warm Weather Service Dress, with a Lieutenant of the Austro-Hungarian Imperial Army (my buddy Larry, a fine piper himself). I have plenty of knee showing in the old way (sorry for my non-authentic sunglasses!) (The eagle-eyed might spot the quad .50s in the background.)

[creagdhubh]

Yes Jock, two inches is a shade over half the height of my hose top in that photo. I would happily wear my hose maybe an inch lower, I think they are at more of a 'two finger' height there, but the length of them and the way they fold means that they tend to end up where they are in that photo.

There's probably a gap in the market for someone to produce kilt hose in a variety of lengths. The pair in that photo are UK size 5.5 - 7.5, and my feet are a size 7, so they are supposedly on the small side, yet are still rather long.

With House of Cheviot made hose in my preferred choice of the Rannoch and Lewis lines, I always buy a size small despite the fact that I am a size 10.5 US foot. The reason for this is that the small size tends to bring the height of the hose right where they need to be/where I like them to be (about 2-3 finger breadths beneath the kneecap). If I ordered the hose in my actual size (size medium) in accordance with House of Cheviot's sizing guide, they would be entirely too long. Therefore, with the exception of my bespoke hose from Almost Unwearoutable and Kenneth Short, I always buy a size small.

House of Cheviot


Almost Unwearoutable

[Calgacus]

Taking the long view of things, this is something that's been fairly stable over the centuries until rather recently, when people (especially Americans, it seems to me) started to pull their socks up right to the kneecap. *Snip!*

I have been pondering why this should be, and have a few ideas that I'll just throw out there to see what others think.

I wonder if hose height was relatively static when hose were hand-knitted and therefore usually custom-made for the wearer. Once hose (and socks more generally) became mass-produced, they may have become longer in an attempt to satisfy all sizes (better too long than too short), or alternatively to be the correct length for wearing with breeches/plus fours/shorts, which were presumably a numerically larger market.

I also wonder if it's because someone not used to kilt wearing feels exposed and so consciously or subconsciously pulls their hose up high.

As for kilt height, again, similar possibilities. Maybe the wearer feels exposed and so lowers the kilt.

Maybe they are unused to the relatively high position of the waist, and so wear it lower than intended by the maker.

Finally, I think the "kilt should just brush the floor when kneeling" thing is still present, and in fact was trotted out by the woman in the BBC radio 3 clip that was posted on these forums a few days ago. I don't know where it comes from, but I hear it over and over again. I believe one method of measuring for a kilt involves measuring from floor to navel when kneeling so maybe that's where it comes from, but as a rule for wearing a kilt it leaves something to be desired.