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  1. #1
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    Full Formal Eveningwear (aka white tie) part 2

















    - Justitia et fortitudo invincibilia sunt
    - An t'arm breac dearg

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  3. #2
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    Great work!

    Two thoughts, for what it's worth:

    First, in the historical section you cite Culloden, then the Sir Walter Scott/Victorian influence, but then when you state that--

    "Contemporary THCD settled into its current form in the early 20th century and was largely codified by the 1950s."

    --I want more detail. What influenced that codification? The war? The British royal family? The evolution of the Highland Games both in Scotland and the Scottish Diaspora?

    Second, are fairy wings an iconic THCD accessory? ;-)



  4. #3
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    @pbutts......I don't think I've seen that tartan before. What is it? I really like it.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Abbott View Post
    @pbutts......I don't think I've seen that tartan before. What is it? I really like it.
    As I recall that's David Pope with his daughter, but I can't help you ID the tartan.

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  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbutts View Post
    As I recall that's David Pope with his daughter, but I can't help you ID the tartan.
    Aye, it is David Pope and his lovely daughter. David is wearing the MacMillan Hunting tartan in Wilson's of Bannockburn colours with an enlarged sett. Very smart looking kilt.

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  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbutts View Post
    <snip> in the historical section you cite Culloden, then the Sir Walter Scott/Victorian influence, but then when you state that--

    "Contemporary THCD settled into its current form in the early 20th century and was largely codified by the 1950s."

    --I want more detail. What influenced that codification? The war? The British royal family? The evolution of the Highland Games both in Scotland and the Scottish Diaspora?
    ...
    As I understand it, there were a number of factors. This can be divided into broader socio-historical influences and narrower Highlands specific ones. The academic in me would like to be able to provide detailed, authoritative sources, but I'm an ethnomusicologist not a kilt historian or material anthropologist. Please indulge me if I paint this in rather broad brushstrokes, with some speculation and interpretation.

    Towards the end of the 19th century, many innovations in men's clothing were taking place—both Highland and Saxon—that became widely accepted in the early 20th century and firmly established by the 1950s. The beginning of the Edwardian era (1901) makes a convenient, if somewhat arbitrary, temporal dividing line in that process. Saxon fashion was shifting towards the classic styles that continue to be worn today, such as the lounge/business suit and tuxedo. In Highland attire, the gold standard of traditional kilts (i.e., tailored, 8 yard, knife pleated to the sett) was still relatively new when King Edward took the throne.

    Another area of transition was the move from bespoke tailoring to off-the-peg clothing. Mass produced menswear was becoming common by mid 19th century for Saxon attire, but due to smaller economies of scale, occurred later in Highland dress. In the first half of the 20th century it was apparently still fairly common for kilt-wearers to have their clothes made for them. This means that they had a more direct influence on what they were wearing. Nonetheless, the period in question (circa 1900-1950) marks the growth of Highland attire retailers, as opposed to bespoke tailoring house. This isn't to say that Highland tailors or bespoke accessories ceased to exist, but rather that the retail industry's growth played a role in codifying the existing practice of that time period, which can be observed in the catalogues from that era. While kilts were (mostly?) still hand-sewn, the rest of the kit was moving towards mass production.

    Another thing is that Highland attire wasn't everyday clothing and the expense presented other obstacles that have contributed to THCD as we know it. People were—and are still today—inheriting not only the know-how of Highland attire, but also the clothing itself. If something doesn't get worn too often and is good quality it can last more than lifetime and be passed on to one's children This economy of attire is also where we get canny traditional ideas like one kilt in the clan tartan and full mask sporran, which can be worn for all levels of dress. It further leads to a very conservative approach to changes of style because no frugal Scot wants to run out and buy the latest, greatest thing when they have perfectly good clothing in the closet at home. The advent of relatively inexpensive kilts and Highland accessories is a fairly recent phenomenon, so the almost reverent attitude toward THCD is partly tied to the expense of owning it.

    On the other hand, the British Royals continued to be interested in Highland attire throughout the period in question, as did the various clan chiefs and other nobility. The very visibility of these people, as well as their financial position, has had an important influence on THCD. I can't imagine that too many Highland chimney sweeps were regularly going to white tie balls. The wardrobes of monied folks would probably have been extravagant compared to the average kilt-wearer, which adds some breadth to the style.

    There's also the influence of the Highland regiments. With two World Wars in that fifty-year period, there would have been a lot of (ex)military men, pipers, and regimental tailors around. This is significant if one considers that many less well-to-do men might not otherwise have been able to afford to wear a kilt. The "C" in THCD stands for civilian, but we can't ignore the military influence; these men would have learned a lot about smart turnout in the barracks. I suppose many them probably kept parts of their uniforms or were able to purchase them as affordable surplus, and then decommissioned them into their civilian Highland attire.

    Finally, tradition is passing things on from generation to generation and the 1950s are within the living memory of many THCD aficionados, while the early 20th century was their parents generation, who, God rest their souls, have mostly passed on. This large time scale is important for any consideration of what is or is not (yet) traditional...

    I welcome more knowledgeable people to contribute to this discussion and I hope I haven't made any glaring errors
    Last edited by CMcG; 28th August 14 at 08:28 AM.
    - Justitia et fortitudo invincibilia sunt
    - An t'arm breac dearg

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  11. #7
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    I agree with everything Colin mentioned above. I would add that when companies like Kinloch Anderson moved from bespoke to off the peg options, the variation in jacket styles narrowed. We see in their catalogues from the interwar period and after, a move to a more sleek and streamlined approach and away from more ostentatious Victorian styles.

    Keep in mind, also, that they were selling civilian attire while also outfitting military regiments so there has always been overlap and cross pollination.

    That said, the civilian aesthetic was also influenced by the boom in country attire and the tweed industry in general by the well to do set in the UK.

    I hasten to add that the influence of people of means on fashion trends is not peculiar to Highland attire. This is the case the world over.
    Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
    Past High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
    “Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.

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  13. #8
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    Well done Colin and Nathan.

    I am a tad late on this, but I have Been busy on rule 11 stuff for that last few days and have had no access to a computer. I actually saw the first post( with the red wording asking members not to post until you had everything posted first) and have spent several minutes, whilst sat in my grouse butt, wondering how it all was going to be received.

    Just a thought. I wonder if your work would serve those seeking to understand traditional kilt attire------particularly new comers who don't know their way around the website-----if the "sticky" could be moved to the Traditional Forum, rather than where it is at present?
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  15. #9
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    Jock's post

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
    I hope that doesn't happen. It seems like one's reward for creating a really useful thread is to have it filed and catalogued rather than continuing to stay vibrant. Although I wasn't technically the OP because someone has to go first, I'd rather this thread remain a place for people to ask for clarification on THCD, to share examples that support the definitions provided. Like the one kilt ten looks thread, it would be nice for the thread to be open so that people who found it useful could express their feedback.
    I too hope that this thread continues in the same vein as the "one kilt ten looks" thread. One cannot fail to observe that this THCD thread under discussion now was, in part, written at the behest of the owner of this website and it does seem to me a tad odd that he now wants to discourage in a permanent way any further discussion on it. Still it is his website after all said and done and he can do as he wishes.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  17. #10
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    A very useful thread, it answered a question for me regarding shoes. It seems that a pair of well polished oxfords are good for formal wear with a kilt. I was wondering if it was acceptable and am glad to find it appears to be.

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