Early tartan

[bikercelt1]

I was just teasing, but it was an impressive response none the less! I find the number of different calendars and time-keeping schemes that have been employed to be fascinating study. In our current paradigm we have a tendancy to view time as solid and set when in fact it is highly subjective. It came as a big shock to me when I learned how arbitrary and capricious our units of time are. I am properly impressed Andrew.

Jamie

[Casey]

Early tartan. Is that what you wear in the morning?

Casey

[Andrew Breecher]

From what I've read, it seems that althought the calender has changed often, the days of the week appear to have remained consistent since we started counting. Opinions?

I started writing this out in my own words, then decided just to paste it from one source, since it summed it up pretty well. The following is from http://www.dictionary.com:

Days and years are natural divisions of time based on the astronomical relation of the earth and the sun, but weeks and the names for the days of the week have their source in astrology. The practice of dividing the year into seven-day units is based on the ancient astrological notion that the seven celestial bodies (the sun, the moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn) influence what happens on earth and that each controls the first hour of the day named for it. This system was brought into Hellenistic Egypt from Mesopotamia, where astrology had been practiced for millennia and where seven had always been a propitious number. The ancient Romans did not divide their calendar into weeks; they named all the days of the month in relation to the ides, calends, and nones. In A.D. 321 Constantine the Great grafted the Hellenistic astrological system onto the Roman calendar, making the first day of the week a day of rest and worship and imposing the following sequence of names on the days: Dies Solis, “Sun's Day” Dies Lunae, “Moon's Day” Dies Martis, “Mars's Day” Dies Mercurii, “Mercury's Day” Dies Jovis, “Jove's Day” or “Jupiter's Day” Dies Veneris, “Venus's Day” and Dies Saturni, “Saturn's Day.” This new Roman system was adopted with modifications throughout most of western Europe. In the Germanic languages, such as Old English, the names of four of the Roman gods were converted into those of the corresponding Germanic gods. Therefore in Old English we have the following names (with their Modern English developments): Sunnandaeg, Sunday; Monandaeg, Monday; Tiwesdaeg, Tuesday (Tiu, like Mars, was a god of war); Wodnesdaeg, Wednesday (Woden, like Mercury, was quick and eloquent); Thunresdaeg, Thursday (Thunor in Old English or Thor in Old Norse, like Jupiter, was lord of the sky; Old Norse Thorsdagr influenced the English form); Frigedaeg, Friday (Frigg, like Venus, was the goddess of love); and Saeternesdaeg, Saturday.

So, to sum up, the Mesopotamian system of seven-day weeks is, yes, a very old system, although originally it was based on seven being a sacred number, not necessarily because it divided up nicely into a year (and they don't do that today, either). The English versions of the names are direct Old English/Anglo-Saxon translations of the Latin versions instituted by Constantine, who got the idea of astrology from Egypt, who had gotten the idea from Mesopotamia/Greece.

Does that make it all clear?

(Incidentally, the French (and probably other Romance languages) is almost straight from the Latin, except for Dimanche/Sunday. Does anyone know where this one comes from? Celtic? I've found that many French words that don't come from Latin are from Gaulish roots.)

Andrew.

[zeytoun]

You bring up some interesting points, Andrew. The French Dimanche, I believe, comes from Latin, Dominicus (Lord, the word becomes to dominate in English). If you look at Spanish, Domingo, you can trace how the word became softened and shortened over time.

Interestingly, Sanskrit and Sumerian cultures also use similar day/astrological connections with the days of their weeks, although in Hebrew the names of the week are simply first day, second day, so on (sabbath, heb. shabbat, literally means the seventh).

Some other points: Although Judaism/Christianity seriously condemn witchcraft/spiritism, they are steeped with Astrological connections.
The record of the passover and exodus from egypt has many "ram/lamb" themes, including a passage where Joseph tells his family to deny being shephards and say that they breed cattle instead (which ends abruptly), and the famous incident where Israelites were executed at the foot of Sinai for calf worship. All this at a time when the dominant constellation in the sky was changing from Taurus, the bull, to Aires, the ram.
The Israelites used the Urim and Thumim for divination purposes, some prophets interpreted dreams, and Daniel was said to possess the "wisdom of the Chaldeans", who specialized in Astrology.
In a passage in the book of Job, G-d challenges Job's creative abilities, and asks him if he can bring forth the Mazzaroth (literally, Zodiac constellations).
The life of Jesus was at approximately the same time of the shifting of the dominant constellation from Aires, the ram, to Pisces, the fish.

[Andrew Breecher]

The life of Jesus was at approximately the same time of the shifting of the dominant constellation from Aires, the ram, to Pisces, the fish.

Which makes it all the more interesting, since the fish (Greek: Icthus) was taken as an early Christian symbol. Of course, The DaVinci Code delves into some of this, but it's more interesting to read the sources Dan Brown himself used.

Now that you mention the Spanish, I remember it a little bit (never having actually learned it, but at one point leared the days of the week). The Spanish sábado sounds more like Sabbath than the Latin, doesn't it? And, of course, it would mean the same day.

Yeah, I love language.

Andrew.

[Graham]

As a sabbatarian Christian, ie, a Christian that observes the seventh-day sabbath, I find this thread very interesting, altho - zeytoun I would be happier replacing your use of the word astrology with astronomy and then find agreement with much of what you say.

But I'm going to bite my tongue here since this is religion being discussed outside of the offtopic forum.

Suffice to say that kilt wearers are deep thinkers and seem to to have a heart for seeking truth!

[Graham]

Early tartan. Is that what you wear in the morning?

Casey

You have it Casey!! this tartan is traditionally worn with velcro fasteners so when you jump out of the sack at 7am you throw this tartan around you, grab your dirk, go outside and scream "come, new day, I'm ready for you".

It's true, trust me!

[Daneel]

Talking of OLD tartans I thought you might be interested in this bit of info about tartans in Ireland http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/tartanandkilts.asp

[Daneel]

Hi Folks Episcopalscot got there first and I missed his post by going to the last page of the tread and opening my mouth befor looking. Sorry

[macwilkin]

Great minds think alike, Daneel!

Cheers!

T.