What Collar/Shirt with Sherrifmuir and/or Ruche Cravat?

[Graeme H]

By "turn-down" collar are you referring to what I would call a wing tip collar?

A turndown collar is a traditional shirt collar, ie what you would normally see with a suit and tie. It's proper name is actually a "collar-attached" shirt.

[RichardtheLarge]

A quick search found this, from an earlier X Marks thread, put together by Matt Newsome to show several Sheriffmuir looks:



In the early years of the 20th century several new Evening Dress jacket styles appeared, first the Prince Charlie Coatee, then the Montrose Doublet and Kenmore Doublet. I have early catalogues which speak of the Prince Charlie Coatee as being a new thing, and document the appearance of the Montrose and Kenmore. I'll have to check and see if I can get an idea of when the Sheriffmuir appeared. (Edit: looked over a few catalogues from c1930 through c1955 and there are no Sheriffmuirs, only Standard Doublets, Prince Charlie Coatees, Montrose "coats", and Kenmore/Morar Doublets.)

In any case it's a 20th century invention (though perhaps "inspired" by some 19th century jackets) so there's no "tradition" per se about what to wear with it, other than to say that lace jabots were very popular in the first half of the 20th century, and you see lace jabots worn with Prince Charlie Coatees, Montrose Doublets, and Kenmore Doublets. So I would suspect the same with the Sheriffmuir.

Ruche ties AFAIK are a quite recent invention, appearing at the end of the 20th century, and were therefore not part of the original intended look of any of our Evening Dress styles.

But that's just history stuff. People wear what they want.

What is your opinion of his tweed formal doublet? This always struck me as a bit of a bugbear, but maybe I’m just unfamiliar with the customary use of fabrics. I assumed that a formal doublet wanted to be velvet or barathea/worsted wool, whereas tweed would be for a daywear coat/jacket/cloak/vest. I’m familiar with tweed kilts in daywear, but I think they might look a bit off in a formal setting.

[Hirsty]

Personally I feel tartan, barathea or velvet in any reasonable colours is the way to go formally for jackets, doublets and coatees. Waistcoats can be in these materials and also white marcella.

[KiltedSergeant]

I wear a Sheriffmuir with either a five-button waistcoat, turn-down collar and black bow tie or a six or seven button waistcoat, collarless shirt and highland cravat (like a stock tie but with lace on both ends).

I can't picture what you mean by a highland cravat. I researched online, but came up empty handed. Is a clarification, or photo possible? Thanks!

[MacRobert's Reply]

The photos I have wearing a highland cravat, unfortunately, show it tucked into the waistcoat ... the safest place when dining. It is tied with a coachman's knot. When not tucked in it looks very similar to a jabot. However a jabot displays 4 or more layers of lace whereas the cravat only shows the lace on the two ends.
With drams (cropped).jpg

This is a late 19th Century (possibly very early 20th) one.
IMG_1006 (2).jpg

[KiltedSergeant]

The photos I have wearing a highland cravat, unfortunately, show it tucked into the waistcoat ... the safest place when dining. It is tied with a coachman's knot. When not tucked in it looks very similar to a jabot. However a jabot displays 4 or more layers of lace whereas the cravat only shows the lace on the two ends.
With drams (cropped).jpg

This is a late 19th Century (possibly very early 20th) one.
IMG_1006 (2).jpg

Now I see. That was very helpful. Thank you. I don't know where I could buy something similar, but it seems that it wouldn't be hard to make something like that.

[MacRobert's Reply]

The cravat is very simple, just an oblong. Happy to let you have measurements if you want them. Machine-made lace is also easily obtained but finding hand-made lace could be more difficult.

[KiltedSergeant]

I'd love to have the measurements, if you don't mind. Thanks, so much! And, is there any way you can define a coachman's knot. I looked online, but couldn't find it. Might it go by another name? Thanks again for your kind help.

Additionally, the gentleman on the far right of that photo looks like The Much Honored Raymond Morris of Balgonie and Eddergoll. Is it he?

[MacRobert's Reply]

I'd love to have the measurements, if you don't mind. Thanks, so much! And, is there any way you can define a coachman's knot. I looked online, but couldn't find it. Might it go by another name? Thanks again for your kind help.

Additionally, the gentleman on the far right of that photo looks like The Much Honored Raymond Morris of Balgonie and Eddergoll. Is it he?

The knot may also be known as a mail coach or waterfall. The cravat is about 7 inches wide by 44 inches long plus 6 inches of lace at each end.

That's him. It was a charity do at Balgonie Castle.

[KiltedSergeant]

The knot may also be known as a mail coach or waterfall. The cravat is about 7 inches wide by 44 inches long plus 6 inches of lace at each end.

That's him. It was a charity do at Balgonie Castle.

Thanks for the great info. It may take awhile, but when I get one made and wear it I'll try to post a photo of the item and attire. Also, I hope to make one of the events at Balgonie one of these years.