Question for Jock and other Scots: neckwear.

[Lady Grey]

My 2 cents....
Jock summed it up perfectly
The real trick is to identify the event accurately and dress accordingly

From my Australian perspective - a jabot and cuffs would be worn at a Ball.

Not a dinner with dancing afterwards. Not at cocktails followed by speeches or presentations and some light background music where a few people may dance.
- yet all may state Black Tie on the invitation.

We do still have Balls in Australia.... my school & uni days were full of them. Many in the horsey set still hold them.
A Ball may have canapés beforehand, a buffet during or late eg;from midnight but rarely a sit down dinner.
But it’s a Ball for dancing hence jabot & cuffs are acceptable as black tie.
A black tie dinner where one sits down to a 3-6 course dinner is not suitable for jabbots & cuffs.
In the same way a morning coat would not be suitable for a Ball or Dinner
Nor would a tuxedo and bow tie be suitable for horse races during the day yet a morning coat is.

It’s about the actual event content, not what is written on the invitation.

To my knowledge White Tie is extremely rare in Australia and I can’t recall having ever seen it at an event, even diplomatic ones (I may be very wrong Ive just never seen it)

Also remember many of the formal events and their dress code are not public events or covered in the media. Hence taking your dress cues from what is seen in the media is useless.
I still have no idea why people think a photograph of Sean Connery in lace jabots & cuffs, outside in the sunshine must be “Correct Kilt Atire”
Just because he spent his youth in Scotland doesn’t mean it “the done thing”. (I’m an Aussie who’s never owned or worn a drizabone and I’d never wear one in the suburbs or city if I did)

So Identify the event... and dress accordingly

[RichardtheLarge]

Part 4.

Answer. When a black bow tie is worn with appropriate formal kilt attire to a white tie event!

OK, a slightly contradictory answer, but its true! Remember the different roots that Highland attire has and from a very different place from saxon attire, that I was talking about? At genuine white tie events the Highlander may wear a jabot with say a sheriffmuir jacket, but in the Highlands and particularly in the Western Highlands often a Clan tartan evening style jacket, made from silk or some other fine material and cut on the bias is worn with perhaps a black low cut three button waistcoat AND with a black tie. Some wear jabots, some wear black ties for this event and assuming the shoes, hose, sporran, sporran chain, maybe some really fancy silver buttons and the kilt jacket is correct for the neck wear and the kilt is correct then, for Highland attire jabot and cuffs, or black tie, is absolutely fine for white tie events

In passing, this is why I am less than enthusiastic about tartan daywear style kilt jackets and waist coats worn during the day that seem to be gaining popularity here at the moment. Apart from the less than flattering straight jacket style, I personally think tartan day jackets and tartan waist coats are just plain brash and rather unnecessary. Whereas, appropriate jackets in tartan worn for ultra formal events is the time and place for the rather loud kilt attire in all its forms to come out and play.

The end.

Thank you for your input on this subject. I have a few follow up questions that I imagine will settle this point for me:

Shall I take it on the basis of your post that white Marcella bow ties are simply not worn in the Highlands, and would represent a juxtaposition of styles? That is to say, that the Jabot is the highland edition and the white bow tie is the Lowland edition? Would you have a specific objection to the Western highlander donning his clan tartan kilt and tartan jacket with a white bow tie and white or tartan waistcoat for this reason?

Also: If one were to wear, for example, a Balmoral or Sheriffmuir doublet in tartan, must it be silk or a finer wool? It seems to me that one might well be served by having the kilt and doublet tailored from the same span of cloth, and I haven’t hitherto thought of the typical barathea as more luxurious than a worsted tartan.

[Lady Grey]

You’re still comparing apples to oranges...
There isn’t an interchangeable ‘highland’ equivalent for some dress codes.

A white Marcella Bow Tie is always worn with a white vest and Black Tailcoat. Thus a white Marcella bow tie only, it can’t be interchanged and worn with x, y, z jacket style that is worn with a kilt.

Here’s Debrett’s
https://www.debretts.com/expertise/e...ighland-dress/

On the next link about White Tie
https://www.debretts.com/expertise/e...des/white-tie/

Today white tie is worn in the evening at certain royal ceremonies and balls, and state and livery dinners. White tie may also be specified for formal evening weddings and for some charity balls. It is also the dress code for some Highland balls, for those men not entitled to wear the kilt.

So again- as stated by Jock and myself it’s about the actual event and what is suitable- not what is interchangeable.

[figheadair]

Here’s Debrett’s
https://www.debretts.com/expertise/e...ighland-dress/

Oh dear, a set of rules that might be fine in the military and pipe bands but has no place in traditional Highland Dress. Just one example - A dagger or sgian dubh (pronounced ‘ski-an doo’) may be placed on the right-hand side. Even when one is left handed .

[Lady Grey]

Figheadair

I’ve always rather liked the explanation given here for which side the sgian Dubh is worn....
https://youtu.be/h_7NKGab5qE
(Don’t watch if men being silly offends -it is supposed to be humorous - there is bare skin)

Stabby Joe story at 7.25 mins

[Jock Scot]

Thank you for your input on this subject. I have a few follow up questions that I imagine will settle this point for me:

Shall I take it on the basis of your post that white Marcella bow ties are simply not worn in the Highlands, and would represent a juxtaposition of styles? That is to say, that the Jabot is the highland edition and the white bow tie is the Lowland edition? Would you have a specific objection to the Western highlander donning his clan tartan kilt and tartan jacket with a white bow tie and white or tartan waistcoat for this reason?

Also: If one were to wear, for example, a Balmoral or Sheriffmuir doublet in tartan, must it be silk or a finer wool? It seems to me that one might well be served by having the kilt and doublet tailored from the same span of cloth, and I haven’t hitherto thought of the typical barathea as more luxurious than a worsted tartan.

A couple of clarifications first. White Marcella bow ties are worn in the Highlands for the rare white tie events, but by those wearing tails and not by those wearing the kilt. Secondly the kilt is first and foremost Highland attire and it is only relatively recently that the kilt in the Lowlands has, almost ceased to be an object of ridicule, in places, there. Tartan trews are traditional Lowland attire or more usually Saxon attire. Sadly because of that, kilt hire fashions have and are prevailing there because there is little real kilt attire knowledge available to the unknowing.

Those wearing saxon formal attire actually have life made so much easier than those who wear formal kilt attire. The dinner suit(tux) covers everything seamlessly in the formal range of evening attire up to, but not including white tie events and the white tie event is covered by the one style, tails and white tie etc..

Those of us wearing Highland attire have to judge and assess the formality of the formal event and then dress accordingly. Avoiding the major stumbling block of overdoing ones attire and actually, underdressing with ones formal attire is a much lesser sin--------apart from where white tie attire is concerned! For example, a PC should not be worn to a white tie event.

So to the Jabot. It is absolutely not just the equivalent to the Marcella white bow tie-----except when worn at white tie events! Confusing isn't it? Think of it as an attire option that can be worn------with an appropriate kilt jacket------ to the more usual higher end of black tie events------or ----- a white tie event. Just as a black tie can and is quite properly worn to white tie events with Highland attire. On the other hand, the jabot worn at the lower end of formal evening attire events is unnecessary and is overplaying ones hand as are, fancy hose and Mary Jane shoes.

I suppose if you want to wear a Marcella white bow tie with your kilt attire at a white tie event, then there is nothing to stop you from doing so. However, many that go to white tie events tend to really know about these things and will notice and will privately draw their own conclusions. You never know, they may even approve, but somehow I doubt it!

Just as a thought for your consideration, not only are tartan evening jackets worn at the high end of kilt attire formality, velvet is probably the choice of many.