Why do vintage jackets outnumber vintage waistcoats?

[EagleJCS]

I think the vest/waist coat without a jacket is a pipe band thing, possibly for reduced cost. Perhaps OCR and others associated with the band world can comment.

The pipe band world is probably where it's seen most often. And short sleeve shirts with the waistcoat and tie. ?!? I don't know why. My thinking is, if it's hot enough to wear short sleeves, then it's hot enough to remove the tie & waistcoat, but that's just me.

Maybe one of the upper grade bands did it one day when the temps jumped unexpectedly and they ditched their jackets prior to entering the competition circle.

[Highland Logan]

One of the reasons is that the idea of a 3 piece suit, while common among trouser type people, is a more modern thing with kilts.
In general, the more formal the outfit, the more common it is to find the jacket and vest made from the same fabric.
For less than formal, well, it is fashion. Fashion trends change all the time. quite often annually.

To be fair, a 3 piece suit died with the excessive fashion trends of the 1970's, and has only become popular again amongst the general public, as much as men wear suits these days. Although there are always those on the bleeding edge of fashion, who blaze that trail first, such as those walking red carpets on TV.

The kilted 2 piece of jacket and waistcoat, had been around from the start, and died off, for reasons less obvious to me anyway. But seems to also have been making a come back.

I assume it has parallels to hipster culture. A recently published study, showed to more someone attempts to be an individual, and buck current norms, the more they end up in the same space as others, ie., everyone shaves, do the opposite and grow a beard, and eventually most non-conformests end up with a beard.

With Highland Dress, it's easy to end up the same, just like hipsters. For those who don't want to look like they rented, they buy older styles. They wear items that no one local wears, they stand out, but among the xmarks crowd, they conform. Sure their are certain camps on here with their own 'thing', but the fact is, most of us here are Highland hipsters.

Frank

[Jock Scot]

To be fair, a 3 piece suit died with the excessive fashion trends of the 1970's, and has only become popular again amongst the general public, as much as men wear suits these days. Although there are always those on the bleeding edge of fashion, who blaze that trail first, such as those walking red carpets on TV.

The kilted 2 piece of jacket and waistcoat, had been around from the start, and died off, for reasons less obvious to me anyway. But seems to also have been making a come back.

I assume it has parallels to hipster culture. A recently published study, showed to more someone attempts to be an individual, and buck current norms, the more they end up in the same space as others, ie., everyone shaves, do the opposite and grow a beard, and eventually most non-conformests end up with a beard.

With Highland Dress, it's easy to end up the same, just like hipsters. For those who don't want to look like they rented, they buy older styles. They wear items that no one local wears, they stand out, but among the xmarks crowd, they conform. Sure their are certain camps on here with their own 'thing', but the fact is, most of us here are Highland hipsters.

Frank

I hope you don't mind me asking Frank, what is/was "Hipster culture"? I know about hipster trousers, but "Highland Hipsters"?

[Tobus]

The kilted 2 piece of jacket and waistcoat, had been around from the start, and died off, for reasons less obvious to me anyway. But seems to also have been making a come back.

I assume it has parallels to hipster culture. A recently published study, showed to more someone attempts to be an individual, and buck current norms, the more they end up in the same space as others, ie., everyone shaves, do the opposite and grow a beard, and eventually most non-conformests end up with a beard.

With Highland Dress, it's easy to end up the same, just like hipsters. For those who don't want to look like they rented, they buy older styles. They wear items that no one local wears, they stand out, but among the xmarks crowd, they conform. Sure their are certain camps on here with their own 'thing', but the fact is, most of us here are Highland hipsters.

Hmmm. I don't see that at all. From what I gather of the hipster crowd, they tend to wear very modern styles of clothing that are "reinvented" from older styles. That's not quite the same as actually wearing vintage styles. Being a traditionalist and being a hipster are two totally separate things.

You do make a fair point about conformity, though. Everyone, even people who are attempting to be individualistic, ends up conforming to a particular style. I don't mind being considered a conformist when it comes to traditional Highland attire; in fact, it's been the goal all along! But "Highland hipster"? Uh, no.

(And just as a side note, I've had my beard since 1998, long before the word hipster was even invented, LOL.)

[Highland Logan]

Hmmm. I don't see that at all. From what I gather of the hipster crowd, they tend to wear very modern styles of clothing that are "reinvented" from older styles. That's not quite the same as actually wearing vintage styles. Being a traditionalist and being a hipster are two totally separate things.

You do make a fair point about conformity, though. Everyone, even people who are attempting to be individualistic, ends up conforming to a particular style. I don't mind being considered a conformist when it comes to traditional Highland attire; in fact, it's been the goal all along! But "Highland hipster"? Uh, no.

(And just as a side note, I've had my beard since 1998, long before the word hipster was even invented, LOL.)

Hey, I'm not calling you a hipster.. lol

You are correct about a difference between a traditionalist and a hipster, and to be fair Highland hipster was in jest. But where most tend to dress like they rented, or are a model from a standard Highland outfitters catalogue. The people that tend to frequent xmarks however, do dress against the majority. Yes it is more traditional, but is still non-conforming to the majority of kilt wearers, at least outside of Scotland, or based on newer photos and reports, at least outside of a certain age of kilt wears in Scotland.

Just as you had a beard before it was 'cool', Jock Scot has dressed in a traditional manner, and continues to even as the trend has moved to the catalogue cookie-cutter look.

So if you consume news like I do, you may have seen a story from the last couple of weeks regarding a study about the hipster trend, and how they all look the same. A stock photo was used, and a gentleman was planing to sue, as they had used his photo without permission… to prove the story, it turned out the photo was of someone else.

Frank

[Highland Logan]

I hope you don't mind me asking Frank, what is/was "Hipster culture"? I know about hipster trousers, but "Highland Hipsters"?

Hard to explain really. Here is a Wikipedia link if you have a few minutes.. it's a fairly good summery. And just a joke Jock.

Frank

[Jock Scot]

Hard to explain really. Here is a Wikipedia link if you have a few minutes.. it's a fairly good summery. And just a joke Jock.

Frank

Well, I did ask! Thank you Frank.

[Karl R]

Economics propels us toward conformity:
I need to replace some of my button-down shirts. If I walk into a store and try to buy a men's button-down shirt, what color shirt will I get? The default shirts available will tend to be blue, white, or gray. If I want to choose a less common color (forest green, muted purple), I might not find one in the store at all.

I even went online (Amazon and eBay) looking for a forest green button-down shirt. There was an increased cost to getting a shirt in that color (primarily a cost in the amount of time I spent looking for one). In addition, I was going to have to make certain trade-offs, potentially in size, fit or material, just to get that color.

Although there are always those on the bleeding edge of fashion, who blaze that trail first, such as those walking red carpets on TV.

Except for those individuals who have the skills to design and make their own clothes, or enough money to hire someone to design and make their clothes, we're going to be constrained into the options that we can actually find and purchase.

In addition, most of us aren't rich enough or famous enough to blaze a trail. I can potentially head off in my own direction, but I'm not going to get a bunch of people following me.

I assume it has parallels to hipster culture. A recently published study, showed to more someone attempts to be an individual, and buck current norms, the more they end up in the same space as others, ie., everyone shaves, do the opposite and grow a beard, and eventually most non-conformests end up with a beard.

The study was looking at people who are actively trying to not conform. The study (and most of society) ignores the people who are more passively not trying to conform.

As an example, Tobus will continue to have a beard, regardless of whether beards are "in" or "out." Similarly, I will never grow a beard, regardless of whether beards are "in" or "out." Whether or not we currently conform depends on whether society has shifted to match us. We are not trying to conform (or avoid conforming). We have a different end goal in mind.

The people who are trying to conform and the people who are deliberately trying to not conform are distinctly different from people like Tobus and me. They care whether or not they conform. Enough that it actually motivates their behavior.

With Highland Dress, it's easy to end up the same, just like hipsters. For those who don't want to look like they rented, they buy older styles. They wear items that no one local wears, they stand out, but among the xmarks crowd, they conform. Sure their are certain camps on here with their own 'thing', but the fact is, most of us here are Highland hipsters.

I don't think that's an accurate assessment, at least for most of us. In general, we're not that concerned with whether or not we conform.

Years ago, I started wearing muted purple shirts because I believed I'd look good in that color. I was recently searching for a forest green shirt for the same reason. I avoid bright green and bright purple shirts because they look awful on me.

Similarly, I started wearing a kilt, because I believed I'd look good in one. My wife encouraged it for the same reason. I tend to default toward highland accessories, because they're designed to look good with a kilt. This coming Saturday, I'm planning to wear a muted purple shirt with my kilt, because the two will look great together. I don't really care whether no Scotsman ever has worn that color before, or whether every Scotsman now wears purple shirts. Conformity (or the lack of it) isn't the end goal.

When I go for the traditional look, it's because it looks good, and because it fits the situation.

But as Rocky and Eric pointed out in their most recent "Kits & Culture" video, kilt wearers generally have to be willing to be the only person in the room wearing a kilt, regardless of whether or not it's our goal.

[Piobair]

I think there are two things happening...

One - I can confirm that waistcoats were pretty rare in the world of highland dress from the 70s through until the late 90s. They became popular in pipe bands in the aughts as a cheaper alternative to jackets - 30 jackets are pricey, especially when there are kids in the ranks who insist on growing. Waistcoats are also significantly more comfortable to play with - jackets tend to slip when a pipe bag is under the arm and sleeves can be restricting. Before waistcoats were so ubiquitous, it was either play in shirtsleeves or with a black wool jacket on. In July in the states, you can guess what most people preferred. Keep in mind that highland wear and piping were pretty closely aligned in the states for a long time - it's much easier to cater to bands of 20-30 people who buy kit at an even clip than the random country dancer or St Andrew's Society member. Piping defined sales, and sales/availability drove the trend. The majority of highland wear shops in America and Scotland were very piping oriented. So that's part of the reason... until Braveheart happened...

The other reason (related to above) is that people wearing kilts just to wear them in the US is a relatively new phenomenon. You just didn't see non-Scots or people with at least some cultural connection wearing the kilt, and certainly not with the eye towards detail that some people have today. People like the "authentic" tweedy look, and it's certainly an easier, more individualistic look to go for (let's be honest - if you're dressing like Prince Charles at Braemar and you're not a Scot, a piper, or an aspiring royal, you're very much an individual). So assume that the already limited supply of jackets/waistcoats that were out there thanks to the market being dominated by a sea of black pipe band jackets was probably quickly snatched up by shoppers. And, of course, some people really did just prefer to wear jackets and belts - it was a popular, easy look for a long time in the US and Scotland.

Things are obviously different these days - if you wanna wear a kilt, you can wear it. You don't have to be "Mac" anybody or know the a tenor drone from a bass drum. The internet opened up sales of old and new across the US and Scotland. Weirdly enough, you'll probably see as many "purists" in the US as Scotland - if not more. If you doubt me, just go to a Scottish wedding and count how many men have kilts brushing their shins and belt buckles sticking out from under their Charlies vests - if they're wearing kilts at all. "Scottish-ness" isn't quite what we expect in the U.S., although I'll defer to those currently there for further details.

It's an interesting time to be a kilt wearer - decent kit is easier to get than ever. Hell, garbage kit is SO easy to get thanks to Pakistan's ability to churn out low quality kilts and jackets for people ready and willing to pay for them. I suspect that if some of these vendors had to show images of the actual articles and not blatantly ripped off images of the real thing, the market for their wares would cool off (or they'd be forced to start making stuff that actually looks/fits right).

Anyway - that's my unsolicited opinion on the topic. I for one hope people keep buying quality tweed waistcoat/jacket combos, if only so in a few years I can grab a nice used one in a stout American size for cheap.

[kingandrew]

I find Jock and Steve's suggestions about wristwatches and central heating perhaps leading to a phase-out of vests (a "devestment?") interesting. They remind me of the views that central heating and cars helped to usher in the decline of men's hats during the 50s-70s.

But I also think that the pipe band fashion point is well taken. Those who lack the money (or connections) to have what they want custom made, will be limited to buying from the universe of "what's available." And if pipe bands weren't wearing vests during the 70s, and pipe bands accounted for most of the Highland wear market at the time, then few manufacturers were likely to put out many vests. Anyone who has ever shopped for anything knows the frustration of realizing every shop you've visited is offering the same 3 items that are not quite what you want.

The internet has certainly allowed many people with more specialized interests (like we Rabble here) to find each other. This has enabled lots of small manufacturers and hobbyists to reach a global market of people who share their niche interest/tastes, which now supports a variety of options that would be impossible if everyone had to support themselves with just the local flea market trade. It also means we can find vintage jackets from the UK and US, instead of just our local thrift store. It is an interesting time to be shopping.

Andrew