Seaforth officers' shopping list

[Troglodyte]

The tartan would have been standard cloth for the military (different qualities for different ranks and uses) and not a bespoke weave.

Exactly so, which makes the cost of the kilt even more incredible.

But my point was to show that in today's terms, bespoke-weaving and kilt-making would have to be something exceptional to demand a price anywhere near 20 percent average earnings.

Back in the late 1980s-early 90s, there was an army surplus outlet in Nottingham selling off double-width military kilting, at what I remember being £2.00 a metre. It was only Mackenzie, and they had several bolts of it - I wonder if it all sold.

[Pleater]

Oh dear - memory is not what it was - I was thinking of a 'heavy'.

I used to have a Navy greatcoat, from a famous surplus store in Portsmouth - half belt at the back, double breasted, worn when trailing through the damp winter weather 1969/70 - probably saved my life as I was used to the dry frosty air half way up a mountain in Yorkshire.

Anne the Pleater

[Brian Rose]

Help a poor colonial out. XX/XX as a price is shillings/pence? Given the salaries listed, I hoping it's not pounds/shillings.
My maternal grandfather left England in 1912. Maternal grandmother in 1915. My go-to rain jacket is ex-Royal Navy. I figured that the R.N. must know something about foul weather.

[Pleater]

Yes, it looks like shillings and pence, except where it is guineas, of course.

Anne the Pleater

[Troglodyte]

Help a poor colonial out. XX/XX as a price is shillings/pence? Given the salaries listed, I hoping it's not pounds/shillings.
My maternal grandfather left England in 1912. Maternal grandmother in 1915. My go-to rain jacket is ex-Royal Navy. I figured that the R.N. must know something about foul weather.

Yes, pounds, shillings and pence of the pre-decimalisation (prior to February 1971) sterling, or Lsd as it was known, from Latin librae, soldi, denarii, and the £ symbol is a florid-script capital L.

There were 20 shillings in the pound, and twelve pennies to the shilling, and a price might be shown in shillings only - such as 35/6 instead of £1-15/6, which would be said one pound, fifteen and six. Half-penny and Farthing (quarter-penny) added to the complexity, along with the Guinea of 21 shillings.

Race-horses and barristers are traditionally bought or paid in guineas.

The prices in the list seem ludicrously high compared to army pay, or average earnings for the time. Historians calculate the value of the pound to be approximately £120.00 in today's terms. At the same period, the Pound/USdollar exchange rate was about £1/$4.87.

[Troglodyte]

Oh dear - memory is not what it was - I was thinking of a 'heavy'.

I used to have a Navy greatcoat, from a famous surplus store in Portsmouth - half belt at the back, double breasted, worn when trailing through the damp winter weather 1969/70 - probably saved my life as I was used to the dry frosty air half way up a mountain in Yorkshire.

Anne the Pleater

They were superb..!

For years I had the army 1940 pattern 'dismounted' version that came well below the knees, and no amount of cold or wet ever went through it. And the pockets seemed designed to hold a pint glass - intentional perhaps..?

My nephew now has the coat.

[fluter]

Yes, it looks like shillings and pence, except where it is guineas, of course.

Anne the Pleater

I have very scant experience with shops where prices are in guineas, but I translate that as "I can't afford it!"

[Troglodyte]

I have very scant experience with shops where prices are in guineas, but I translate that as "I can't afford it!"

It might depend on your market.

Race-horses, greyhounds and rams still get traded in guineas (although payment is in modern currency) and some lawyers still calculate their fees is guineas, which makes them seem less expensive.

And a few famous horse-race winnings are in guineas, so you could bet lucky...

[Tomo]

This list reminded me of another I found in the very good introductory text, ‘The Tommy of the First World War.’ written by Neil R. Storey.

I noticed with interest that the add was from Kendal, Milne & Co.

Kendals is a well-known department store in Manchester. I have been there often.

It was originally opened by a local draper called Watts in 1832, but was soon after bought out by three employees Kendal, Milne & Faulkner. It's know locally just as Kendals and is believed to be the oldest department store in the country. It was bought by Harrods in 1919 and for a time in the 1920's known as Harrods but quickly reverted to Kendal, Milne & Co. due to pressure from both customers and staff. The Harrods Group, including Kendals was then bought by House of Fraser in 1959, but they kept the Kendals name until rebranding in 2005. Despite the name change and extensive re-furbishment, "Kendal, Milne & Co." can still been seen in the marble over the store entrances and most locals still call it Kendals.

The purpose-built 1930's Art Deco building is currently the largest department store in Manchester.

For now it is still trading. It had been scheduled to close early in 2019, due to House of Fraser's financial position. Despite a reprieve more recent plans announced at the end of 2020 suggested it will still close and the building will be refurbished, extended and repurposed as offices. The plans were approved this summer.

[OC Richard]

The tartan would have been standard cloth for the military (different qualities for different ranks and uses) and not a bespoke weave.

Interesting point to ponder.

I had noticed, time and again, the difference between the tartan worn by Other Ranks (the very heavy slightly fuzzy blanket-like stuff) and that worn by Senior Sergeants and Officers, which in many photos appears to be civilian-style 16 ounce Strome-like stuff.

Question is, say it's 1914 and a wealthy officer is ordering his kilt from the Saville Row shop of which he's been a customer for years. Who weaves the tartan? Could it be anybody?

Where it's most clear is with the Panels seen on the kilts of Argylls officers. In a photo of a number of officers no two panels are alike, which I feel indicates that each officer has used a different tailor. (The various panels have used various shades of green thread, and the precise pattern of the embroidery varies.)