Wearing ex military issue and items

[Father Bill]

So here’s a specific: I see black-cock feathers on civilian dress from time to time. Do they not have a military meaning of some sort?

[OC Richard]

So here’s a specific: I see black-cock feathers on civilian dress from time to time. Do they not have a military meaning of some sort?

I don't know if they've ever had any meaning per se, but they've been a popular decoration for bonnets both civilian and military since at least the early 19th century.

I'll have to go back and see the earliest image I can find of them.

One thing we would be well to keep in mind is that nearly every piece of Highland regimental uniform began as civilian dress, the exception of course being the regimental insignia.

Interestingly many things entered the army through the dress of pipers, something like

civilian Highland Dress > civilian pipers' livery > regimental pipers' livery

and in more than one case items originally specific to regimental pipers were later adopted for the entire soldiery of the Highland regiments, and subsequently by all Scottish regiments both Highland and Lowland.

With blackcock tails, as far as I know they were never worn on the feather bonnet.

Glengarries were introduced in the 1840s as part of a civilian pipers' livery then adopted for the pipers of the 79th Foot. However the pipers of the 79th didn't wear blackcock tails, but rather a single eagle feather, as they still do to this day (4th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

Glengarries later spread to most other Highland regimental pipers and for the pipers for whom the Glengarry was their full dress headdress blackcock tails were adopted by some regiments, but only in certain orders of dress.

For the majority of Highland soldiery, for whom the feather bonnet was the full dress headdress, the Glengarry was undress and no decorations other than the cap-badge was worn.

[Father Bill]

Thanks Richard.

That's an interesting evolution explanation. Ever see them on Balmorals? I saw one in passing the other day and wondered if that was common or just an oddity.

I don't know if they've ever had any meaning per se, but they've been a popular decoration for bonnets both civilian and military since at least the early 19th century.

I'll have to go back and see the earliest image I can find of them.

One thing we would be well to keep in mind is that nearly every piece of Highland regimental uniform began as civilian dress, the exception of course being the regimental insignia.

Interestingly many things entered the army through the dress of pipers, something like

civilian Highland Dress > civilian pipers' livery > regimental pipers' livery

and in more than one case items originally specific to regimental pipers were later adopted for the entire soldiery of the Highland regiments, and subsequently by all Scottish regiments both Highland and Lowland.

With blackcock tails, as far as I know were never worn on the feather bonnet, but generally on the Glengarry, and thus wouldn't predate the adoption of that headdress in the army.

Glengarries were introduced in the 1840s as part of a civilian pipers' livery then adopted for the pipers of the 79th Foot. However the pipers of the 79th didn't wear blackcock tails, but rather a single eagle feather, as they still do to this day (4th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

[OC Richard]

Interestingly the earliest photo I can find at the moment showing a blackcock feather appears to be a member of the London Scottish.

Presumably the Glengarry was their full dress headdress.

[OC Richard]

Ever see blackcock tails on Balmorals?

Yes indeed.

There's a wonderful early photo, which I can't find at the moment, showing two Gordon Highlanders pipers around 1860.

The 92nd evidently hadn't got the memo about pipers wearing Glengarries yet, and these pipers are wearing Balmoral bonnets with blackcock tails.

Shortly afterwards the Gordon pipers went to plain dark blue Glengarries like the other Highland regimental pipers, and from the get-go wore a blackcock tail in certain orders of dress.

When the Lowland regiments began wearing some Highland elements, blackcock tails could be seen worn in their Kilmarnock bonnets.

[ShaunMaxwell]

I routinely wear a couple of former MOD brass cantles that I’ve had rebagged in chocolate-colored leather and Texas bobcat without a thought to the fact that they started off as military items. And once in a blue moon, I’ll break out an old regimental day sporran I purchased from Matt Newsome years ago. I wear it with the insignia still attached, but only because it’d look worse with the two holes in the front with the insignia removed. The time or two I’ve worn it out and about, it passed without comment, as it would be unusual for me to run into a former member of the regiment in Texas.

That said, while I admire the regimental hair sporrans, I wouldn’t think of wearing one. (That may seem inconsistent, but that’s my thinking!)



Those are my only three bits of MOD surplus kit.

Cheers,

SM

[kilted redleg]

Congratulations alpha your simple question has kicked off a great discussion in the rabble - well done.
So here's my question regarding this discussion. I served in the US Army in 1973 - 79 and the colors of our dress uniform for Spring and Winter was called "Dress Greens." So say that I go to Glengarry hats a purchase a dark green balmoral hat that matches the color of my dress uniform, however in Canada apparently that color cap is reserved for "special forces." http://www.glengarryhats.com/balmora...moralgreen.php
Would I be "disrespecting" Canadian special forces by wearing this cap with the US Army clan cap badge on it, or better yet I purchase a tam-o-shanter and put my old army unit patch on it is that considered a faux pas and stepping on someone's toes in either the UK or Canada?

[piperalpha]

Congratulations alpha your simple question has kicked off a great discussion in the rabble - well done.
So here's my question regarding this discussion. I served in the US Army in 1973 - 79 and the colors of our dress uniform for Spring and Winter was called "Dress Greens." So say that I go to Glengarry hats a purchase a dark green balmoral hat that matches the color of my dress uniform, however in Canada apparently that color cap is reserved for "special forces." http://www.glengarryhats.com/balmora...moralgreen.php
Would I be "disrespecting" Canadian special forces by wearing this cap with the US Army clan cap badge on it, or better yet I purchase a tam-o-shanter and put my old army unit patch on it is that considered a faux pas and stepping on someone's toes in either the UK or Canada?

You could purchase a Robert MacKie balmoral if you're worried offending someone. I didn't mean to get a discussion going but I'm sure happy I did.

[Jock Scot]

So here’s a specific: I see black-cock feathers on civilian dress from time to time. Do they not have a military meaning of some sort?

It’s an uncommon thing to see a bonnet being worn with civilian kilt attire anyway and even more uncommon to see a civilian( who is not perhaps a member of a band) with a black cock tail in it. I can only think of one reason for a civilian to have a blackcock tail in his bonnet and that it is traditional in some places that a person having shot his first blackcock will usually have that beautiful tail presented to him by the gamekeeper. A large tip is usually handed over and often the tail is proudly worn in the bonnet for a wee while in the shooting field. Not something I have seen for some time now, mainly due to most estates who are now trying to preserve the magnificent bird.

[Father Bill]

It’s an uncommon thing to see a bonnet being worn with civilian kilt attire anyway and even more uncommon to see a civilian( who is not perhaps a member of a band) with a black cock tail in it. I can only think of one reason for a civilian to have a blackcock tail in his bonnet and that it is traditional in some places that a person having shot his first blackcock will usually have that beautiful tail presented to him by the gamekeeper. A large tip is usually handed over and often the tail is proudly worn in the bonnet for a wee while in the shooting field. Not something I have seen for some time now, mainly due to most estates who are now trying to preserve the magnificent bird.

Thank you, Jock. That's good perspective and context.