Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Mael Coluim]

Apologies to the OP but should we not start a new thread for Ern (Mael Coluims) visit in 2014. Seems like it's going to be a big event and with TPA's help there will be real ale aplenty. Is it too late for Tilted Kilt to open a Derbyshire branch?

Go for it Simon!

[neloon]

Colin,
Thank you for an excellent very fair summary.

"We've read time and time again that the kilt is seen as special clothing, which is usually reserved for special events like weddings or ceilidhs,"
This has been so for a long time perhaps since ever the kilt drifted into the Lowlands and became our "National Dress". In the past, every Sunday was a special event that brought out the kilt for "Sunday Best"; young boys were almost expected to wear the kilt for Sunday School. Sunday observance has now declined almost to zero and the kilt is now little found among the under-twenties.

[Jock Scot]

GMcG.

Not a bad summary there Colin, but slow down. I think your penultimate paragraph does cause problems though. Whilst the Scots may have family or friends outwith Scotland who they may be in contact with, but in general they have no interest in the diaspora as such. They are just Americans, or Whoever that might cross the Scots minds(as Americans or Whatevers) should a slot in the world news crop up, as they do, from time to time.

In general I think you, and the world at large are being far too hasty in expecting/wishing the Scots to move from their "conservative" position, if it ever does, but it just might and it would be nice to think that this adjustment might a two way thing. A LOT of time------50/100 years(I am not kidding)---- needs to go by before this kilt konservatism might abate. I really do feel that well known New World impatience is unhelpful here and could easily be counter productive .

[Phil]

I now have a better understanding of the kilts for Scots in Scotland position. Nonetheless I hope that if more people from outside Scotland wore the kilt "properly" i.e. as the Scots in Scotland wear theirs, then there might be more acceptance of the Scottish diaspora holding onto or even reclaiming the kilt. The flip side of that coin is that it would be a shame for some Scots to "cut off their nose to spite their face" by saying the Scottish diaspora are categorically not Scottish and shouldn't wear the kilt because they aren't Scots by nationality, when those same people could be their greatest allies. Perhaps this is another one of those mutual understanding things.

I am glad that you have gained a better understanding of Scotland as a nation and no longer view our country as just some "region" of England. This subsuming of our country is something that causes most, if not all, Scots a great deal of offence which is probably not well understood abroad. Hopefully threads such as this will help to spread that message to a wider audience.
As to the diaspora, well they have their own lives to lead and have moved on to a, supposedly, much better life than the one they left behind in Scotland. And it is sometimes a puzzle why they then wish to hang on to the supposed icons of a former existence that they have chosen to leave behind rather than the reality of the Scotland they know still exists. I know that there are jokes about expat Scots being even more Scottish than the Scots, whooping it up at Caledonian Balls, eating shortbread and haggis and drinking malt whisky, all that kind of couthie thing - that is until anyone suggests they actually move back to Scotland at which point they throw up their hands in horror!
And finally, what Scots think of Americans wearing kilts? This can only be a personal view but I doubt if it is unique. Intrigued perhaps? Why would someone with no connection to such a national icon choose to adopt it? Offended? No, not unless the individual was trying to make a mockery of it. Puzzled definitely. This is not their national dress so why are they wearing it, particularly if they have not taken the trouble to immerse themselves body and soul in the culture that created it? Protective? Yes, definitely. Regardless of what many, perhaps the majority here would like to proclaim, the kilt is an iconic Scottish symbol and should not be regarded otherwise. If people want to wear denim or cammo skirts or other such creations that is their choice, just please, please do not refer to them as kilts and by association a connection to a Scottish icon to which they have none whatsoever.

[auld argonian]

Don't forget, though, Phil, that the majority of the North American forum members had the choice to leave Scotland made by a Great Grandparent to some exponential power (or perhaps it was an enforced choice...). So we're more out of direct contact with Scotland than an ex-pat.

The ex-pat thing is funny, though. I had a friend who was an ex-pat from a Baltic nation that was occupied by the Soviet Union. He and all of his friends swore that, when the Russians were moved out, they were goin' back big time! Re-take the Mother Country! After the Soviets bailed out, I asked him when he was going back. "Are you F-ing CRAZY, Gronkowski?" quoth he."I'm not going to give up living in the United States....I may visit the Mother Country but I'm coming back here."

So much for THAT PARTICULAR ex-pat....

Best

AA

[ThistleDown]

Nicely done, Colin. Neloon has brought up an interesting point regarding the decline in regular kilt-wearing in Scotland in the last half of the 20C. I wore Highland dress and shorts as two main items of school dress, depending on the activity in the early years of that half. Today my school's kilt-wearing is restricted to its pipe band and to some very special occasions when the school uniform may be set aside. That change has come about, I believe, because the school has a more international population. On the other hand, the evolution of cheap kilts from Asia has meant that even students at the university or early working years level and young lads with growing families can afford at least a form of Highland dress. I think if we had the results of a survey to hand we might find a surprising number of Scots in our cities have kilts even though they rarely wear them. Not all of that tat on the Royal Mile goes away to America

It may well be a matter of place and time. Walking through Edinburgh or Glasgow or any other Lowland town on a Wednesday afternoon in August a visitor may see kilted clerks in Highland outfitters and a few kilted tourists, but not a single native going about his daily business whilst dressed in more than a thousand quids worth of finery; on a Saturday evening in pubs in Oban or Fort William or Inverness, or at house parties all over the country, many more will be seen.

[Peter Crowe]

Post deleted

[kilted scholar]

The discussion on expatriates and the national identity of individuals has given rise to some interesting, and to a great extent perplexing, comments.

In particular, the idea that when a person leaves a particular country he or she ceases to be identified with that country does not of itself make sense to me. I would have thought belonging to a nation is a complex matter, in connection with which heredity, residence, citizenship and personal identification are all contributory elements.

In my case I was born and raised in London. My father’s family were Scots, with relatives in Scotland. My mother was English, of Huguenot background. At the same time no English person could ever pronounce our name correctly; only Scots could do so.

Later I moved to the USA. Did I become an American by doing so? While I was never part of an expatriate community and mixed throughout with Americans, the very suggestion would have been greeted with astonishment and ribald laughter by everyone who knew me.

Then I returned to the UK - to Scotland! On the assumption that residents of Scotland alone are Scots I was at long last a Scot. English, then American, now Scots. I could now wear the kilt - as a Scot, since I lived in Scotland.

Sadly, I moved again - to England. Now presumably I was English. But not for long, as I moved back to the USA, to resume life as an American - an existence that no one I encountered would ever have dreamed to be genuine.

Then it was back to the UK again - to England and to take up and renew an identity as English.

Then back for a longer time, a much longer time, as an American. How funny that I never, in all those long years, became an American citizen! Yet I had left the UK and, on the assumption that a person who leaves his country can no longer be counted as belonging to it, I had ceased to be British, whatever part of the UK it was to which I could legitimately claim allegiance.

Now we’re back again - in Wales. Does that make me Welsh?! With no disrespect to the Welsh people, this cannot be so, never in a thousand years.

If the present place of residence was to be regarded as the determining factor in person’s national identity, our present global world would create immense problems for many people! It would even mean that for important chunks of his life, Jock Scot was an Englishman!

[ThistleDown]

I resemble that.

[Domehead]

The discussion on expatriates and the national identity of individuals has given rise to some interesting, and to a great extent perplexing, comments.

In particular, the idea that when a person leaves a particular country he or she ceases to be identified with that country does not of itself make sense to me. I would have thought belonging to a nation is a complex matter, in connection with which heredity, residence, citizenship and personal identification are all contributory elements.

I actually addressed this very issue on pg16 and it went dormant. Thank you very much for clearly puncuating the point.