An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[ccga3359]

Please DON'T include the rubber chicken sporran. There is only one person that does that and we don't need any others.

Actually it's more than one (right Rob?). And a hundred years from now it will be "traditional" attire.

[Livingston]

Jock, need any help keeping Grant out? Please?

[SlackerDrummer]

.... and it seems that this subject is brought up every six months to a year... and the results are always the same... If you don't want your feelings hurt, stop asking Jock Scot his opinion, on this subject...his answer will always be the same....

Just a quick point. I asked the question and I have yet to have my feelings hurt.

Additionally, much (most?) or what has been discussed in this thread has had little to do with the question.

[dfmacliam]

Just a quick point. I asked the question and I have yet to have my feelings hurt.

Additionally, much (most?) or what has been discussed in this thread has had little to do with the question.

As much as I like Jock, I have learned not to ask him his opinion on my wearing a kilt...LOL...He is a good guy and has great stories and photo's

[BCAC]

I think that the thing we "can't get our heads around" is the fact that you have a nationality (American), your parents have the same nationality, your grand parents also. Whereby comes the need to look for something else?

It maybe a case of "I've always heard my family talking about the old country and I'm gonna have a look to see what I can find" or ...

"That Scottish Highland wear is really cool. I'm gonna have a look to see if I have some connection back along the line somewhere".

It's something that I, personally, just don't understand. I mean, you have a country and a nationality (whatever that may be, xland, for example), your parents and your grand parents have the same, so where does it come from that you feel the need to look for something else? Just be a proud xlander. And, if that proud xlander wants to wear the kilt, well he can kilt on! He doesn't need a reason. To beat a probably VERY dead horse, you don't need to prove that you have a right to wear the kilt.

It just maybe that it all comes from a love for the kilt. Maybe having that connection waaaaaaaaaay back gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside, which is hard to understand for someone who is not in the same position.

[Father Bill]

Hi BCAC!

The hotter parts of the debate had died down, and I really don't want to get it heated up again, but maybe I can help you to understand a little better, since I think you've inferred that you're perhaps asking about that. I assume that it's because you want to understand. I know that not everyone does, but on this forum I believe that all serious XMarkers do.

Your use of two different terms in your posting may be helpful to me in this explanation. I think that what you may be having trouble getting your head around is that here in Canada (and I would assume in the US too) we normally think proudly of these as our countries, but cannot all or always feel it as what you have called a "nationality." For many of us, it's too young and too inter-mixed for us to have or feel that sort of mindset. Thus, when we seek "rootedness," we grasp further back. For a lot of us, it's that simple, but I know it could be difficult for somebody with as relatively culturally homogenous and ancient a society as Scotland's to recognize or identify with our feelings.

I speak primarily for myself, but I think from other comments I've read here that I'm not likely alone. For me, in fact, it can be a deep and primal longing, a vague sense of emptiness, that I for one often have difficulty quenching. It means that when I speak with those around me, they don't share the same roots, traditions, culture, history, or understanding with me or with each other and it can start to feel very lonely and even disorienting at times. Even though I am with fellow Canadians, we don't share the same culture, histories or even all the same values.

I therefore often relate closely to those in the "Old Countries" who have the same ones as I, at the same time as I relate to other Canadians for more recent histories and culture. (For example, don't get Canadians started about hockey. We all share that little bit of culture... but it's only a century old, and much less than that in its present form. It's totally different in my lifetime to what it was when I was a kid, so even that isn't "rooted.") That means that in North America, we've come to share one very strong bit of culture that may be what seems so odd to you: we encourage and deeply respect one-another in our rootedness to the cultures from which we sprang. That is Canadian culture, and it's a courteous kindness we offer one-another in our individual solitudes. We could never get along together if we did not constantly and methodically demonstrate that kind of respect for differences that are sometimes quite large. Our "sameness" is in that way, our respect for our differences.

It's one reason why here you will find little social and even geographical groupings of those whose history stretches back, sometimes for centuries, to the same or similar ethnic and geographical origins - it's an anchor for us. A chance to let down our guard just a little bit. It's an exciting relief to be able to say, "These people are like me!"

I don't think it happens as much for us at the office, on the plant floor, at sporting or social events, at church, or even at home as it must for you. I respect and envy the shared history that you can experience all day. Oh sure, I know there will be differences, but there's also a rock bottom set of commonalities that you likely take for granted, just because they're always there. We don't have that. We live and work in a quagmire of not knowing where the other fellow's coming from, and having always to have our antennae up to be sensitive that we're not mis-communicating or offending. Just think for example of the miscommunications and offenses that have been seen on this forum, or even in this thread. What unites us here is the kilt. What unites North Americans is an awareness of, and sensitivity to our differences. Odd to be united by difference, isn't it? And at times unnerving too!

I'm not trying to justify anything here, just trying to explain it since you were thoughtful and kind enough to... not quite ask, but to share your puzzlement. If you have travelled abroad much, you may recognize the feeling of "not belonging." This is similar for me. It can be emotionally exhausting to live your entire life that way, so we seek a harbour with which to identify and to give us safe emotional and cultural anchorage.

Hope that helps.

Bill+

[Detroitpete]

BCAC,

I think your post above supplies us with a very adequate description of the conundrum some individuals face. I complete understand Jock's opinion, primarily because of my own experience. On my mother's side, I'm the first generation to live in the US. She and her parents were all born in Sicily.

Her father, my grandfather, when asked, would always say he was a Sicilian. This is even despite his 'earning' US citizenship by enlisting in the army in WWII. He fought from North Africa, through Sicily, Normandy and the Battle of the Buldge. He was a decorated combat infantryman in the US Army. He would often remind me that I be be part Sicilian, yet I wasn't "A" Sicilian, because I wasn't born there. No malice, regret or gratitude--just a statement of fact.

My Mother referred to herself as a Sicilian who had emigrated to America. She married an American of Scotish/Irish and Swedish ancestry. The American melting pot and quick assimilation by many emigrants and their immediate offspring can lead some to seek for some special kind of 'connection' to the 'motherland'. To some it can be come a very personal and serious business. To others, a passing interest.

I am who I am because of my Ancestors. I am what I am by my own actions. I, like many others don't seek a 'right' or permission to wear the kilt--I just wear it. My Scottish bloodlines go back to The Bruce. My Sicilian bloodlines, I'm sure include peasants, Sicilian Pirates and probably a few Romans/Greeks and North Africans.

Searching for a 'right' to wear the kilt for one not born in Scotland is a red herring, in my opinion. The only right I seek in this regard is my own desire. Perhaps that makes this issue a bit more succint for those who believe as I do? With that, I can completely understand Jock's opinions. I value them. I appreciate a venue that allows for his and other's to be expressed. I however do not have to live by them, and that does not detract one iota from the level of respect I have for him and others who share his view.

Kilt on.

Edited to say: When asked of my ethnicity I refer to myself as an American with Sicilan and Celtic ancestry.

[Father Bill]

Well said, Pete. What you've written seems to me to be complimentary to my post just above; it fills in some different parts of the same equation.

Thanks!

[Tobus]

I think that the thing we "can't get our heads around" is the fact that you have a nationality (American), your parents have the same nationality, your grand parents also. Whereby comes the need to look for something else?

The answer to this question is that nationality does not equal culture. Nationality is in many ways irrelevant in that context. After all, I share the same nationality with people who look completely different from me, speak a different language, practise a different religion, and have completely different values and ways of thinking.

Surely, living in France, you see similar things there. If you have children born in France, would you expect them to be "French" in the same manner as the large contingent of those who came there from the Middle East? Again, I'm talking about culture, values, manner of dress, religion, etc. While your French children may share a common nationality with others, that doesn't mean that they are expected to be automatons. Their culture and values come from their family, and all the ethnic history of that family. It would be a sad day indeed if your children, as well as the children of those immigrants from the Middle East, intentionally forgot where they came from and who they were!

I'm slightly disturbed by the modern trend of associating culture with nationality. Nationalism really has no place in it. This is 2012, for crying out loud. It's the age of globalism, and to expect that everyone who lives within the imaginary lines drawn on paper by politicians should rigidly adhere to a similarly imaginary culture that defines that nation is a trifle absurd, don't you think?

It is, in fact, the very phenomenon of globalism (i.e. the spreading of peoples from their ancestral homelands to points all over the globe) which makes it that much more important to attempt to retain some semblance of cultural identity. By preserving the culture of one's forefathers, an individual is resisting the push towards the horror of assimilation and homogeneity. By preserving culture, we implicitly state that the culture has value and should not be forgotten. What a cheap world it would be if we all abandoned our family history and traditions in favor of shallow modern culture!

[Father Bill]

Again - Tobus, you have offered much here. I understand and relate to what you've said.

The difficulty is often for folks whose "nationality" is defined in the same words and terms as their "culture." BCAC - you've opened up our understanding by offering those two different words. Thanks!